Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 13:49:58 -0500
Reply-To: Derek Drew <drew@INTERPORT.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Derek Drew <drew@INTERPORT.NET>
Subject: Factory Viscous Coupling That Was Apparently Too Stiff
In-Reply-To: <002701bf91bb$826a9c40$8f24a2d1@dell>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
At 07:55 AM 3/19/00 -0800, you wrote:
>Derek,
>Just to clarify, I understand that you made little or nothing on this group
>purchase of VC's and you were quite clear in stating that there is no
>warranty on these things. So it is not my expectation that you will be
>replacing my VC... and certainly not at your expense. My purpose in sending
>sending you information of the results of the tests on my VC are just to
>keep you informed and to solicit your advice since you are likely the most
>knowledgeable list person on the subject of VC's.
>
>Right now, my van is at my mechanic's shop. I will be out of town the next
>few days, but if there are any further tests you think should be run I can
>call him and have him do them. I expect George will want my van out of his
>shop by the end of the week as he doesn't have a lot of room there. (He's
>being really nice letting me bring my own parts and still helping me test MY
>bad part.) So it would be most convenient if we could come to a conclusion
>by the end of the week... at which point I will probably either have him
>just remove the drive line and drive the van home with the NEW VC still
>installed or have him remove the NEW VC and reinstall the Old VC so that I
>can drive the van home (45 minute drive).
Send me your mechanic's address and I will send a new VC to that location.
Send me back the VC that was too stiff.
It looks like I am being pushed into a different role with respect these
VCs that makes me look a little more like a vendor. It is impossible for me
to stand by and watch you get a VC that appears too stiff and tell you
tough luck. That isn't fair.
Expect to see some or all the following changes with respect to these VCs
in the future:
1. The price will remain low, but it will be more than Round 1
2. In the future I will attempt to warranty future units.
3. With respect to the current shipment, I might pro-rate costs among those
vanagon owners who were in on the first round on a voluntary basis. It is
premature to know what these costs are until I find out some more
information, but it is not fair for you to shoulder the cost alone. The
worst case would be $68 each. I am going to mess with the Atlantic Ocean
first however, and see what progress I can make on that front.
4. I am still waiting for a ship date on Round 2 but all looks well.
>I really appreciate you help.
>Thanks,
>Bill
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Derek Drew <drew@interport.net>
>To: Davidson <wdavidson@thegrid.net>
>Date: Friday, March 17, 2000 1:08 PM
>Subject: Re: viscous couplings
>
>
> >42 lbs is suspiciously high but not out of the range of reason
> >
> >Next step is the jackstands/rolling jack test.
> >
> >If it fails this, let me know.
Derek,
First off as my mechanic, George, pulled the van out of it's parking space
the wheels were scrubbing before the van was even turned 45 degrees...
seemed extreme to me.
Anyway, it failed the floor jack test:
It was idling a bit high... about 1100 rpm because it was cold... but there
was no doubt... not even a quarter of a revolution of the rear tires before
the front tires were pulling the jack forward (on asphalt)... there was a
little movement of the rear tires but not much before the vc engaged (on
email posted on the vanagon.com tech section mentioned getting 10 to 20 rpms
of the rear tires before the VC engaged).
I'm no expert but it seems to me that this test was derived from Dr. Rainer
Woitok reading between the lines, so to speak, of his reading of one of VW's
original (German) repair manuals in which they set up the rear wheels on a
'brake testing stand' to see if there was engagement of the front
differential through the viscous coupling. But it is my understanding that
they made no mention of this test for testing a viscous coupling engages too
soon or all the time. So I'm not sure what this test proves.
In any case, George who owns German Motors in Tahoe City (list recommended)
has seen and worked on many syncros here in the Tahoe area (he drives one)
and his general sense of this VC of mine is that it is very tight... but
then, he hasn't much experience with new ones... just used ones and rebuilt
ones from Oregon Transaxel.
Can you tell me if the 25 foot lbs you mentioned for turning the front wheel
is for new viscous couplings or used ones that still function properly?
It would be interesting to know the foot lbs measured on other new VC's from
this batch that the guys have just installed.
I left the van at my mechanic's for the weekend hoping we would have some
solution so that he will know in what direction to proceed next week. (Also,
I was afraid to drive it home!)
Thanks for your help,
Bill
From: "Steven X. Schwenk" <sxs@concentric.net>
I've added a new twist to the jack test. Dr. Rainer
Woitok's description of the VW manual test using the brake
stand prompted this.
When performing the jack test using a floor jack with
wheels, i could not let the clutch out all the way without
fully engaging the VC, even at idle.
So, I put pieces of 1x1 in front of the fromt tires and
tried. They were too low and the van would climb over them
at idle. So, i put a 2x4 in front of the wheels, and it
worked. I could let the clutch all the way out at idle and
the rear wheels would spin, but the van sat still. My
assistant, Dr. Peter, timed the number of revolutions at
idle and it was around 16 or 20, i can't remember. If i
gave a lillte bit of throttle, the van started to climb the
2x4. I think a wheel block about 1/12" would be just about
right to replicate the test Dr. Woitok shares.
steve
=============================
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:57:17 -0800
X-eGroups-From: "Steven X. Schwenk" <sxs@concentric.net>
From: "Steven X. Schwenk" <sxs@concentric.net>
Subject: [Syncro] New VC Test Results (Corrected formatting)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-UIDL: cd9a054b00c379def5990f040e37e540
From: "Steven X. Schwenk" <sxs@concentric.net>
I ran my newly installed VC through the guantlet of tests
and it passed them all, i think.
Binding:
On a full lock 360 degree turn in first at moderate G's for
four full laps, no chirping or binding.
The jack test:
With rear wheels raised by a floor jack with wheels, on a
very slight incline, with a warm engine and warm (not by
much) VC, ideling at about 1000 rpm in granny gear, i can
partially let the clutch out so that the rear wheels are
spinning slowly at about 5 -6 rpm. you can feel the vc
pulling a little bit. if i let the clutch out any more, the
VC fully engages and the front wheels
start to pull the van. very sensitive. If i let the clutch
out too quickly, it would engage the VC in about 1/4 turn of
the rear wheel.
The torque wrench test:
I jacked up the left front wheel, put a torque wrench on one
lug and turned the front wheel. It took less than 25lbs of
torque to turn the wheel around, but my cliker torque wrence
is likely inaccurate.
So, it looks like i'm in good shape, except that it seemed
to engage sooner on the jack stand test than i expected.
steve
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> >At 08:30 AM 3/17/00 -0800, you wrote:
> >>Derek,
> >>Just got off the phone to my mechanic.... he says it takes 42 foot lbs to
> >>keep the front wheel turning at a slow speed with the other three wheels
> >>locked up.
> >>Further advice?
> >>Bill
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Derek Drew <drew@interport.net>
> >>To: Davidson <wdavidson@thegrid.net>
> >>Cc: syncro@onelist.com <syncro@onelist.com>
> >>Date: Friday, March 17, 2000 3:33 AM
> >>Subject: Re: viscous couplings
> >>
> >>
> >> >At 07:37 PM 3/16/00 -0800, you wrote:
> >> >>Derek... oh king of vc's:
> >> >>I'm concerned about my new VC.
> >> >>Had my mechanic put it in and said it felt stiff to him (he locks up
>the
> >> >>rear wheels and tries to spin the front wheels).
> >> >
> >> >When you lock the rear wheels and spin the front ones it would be
>typical
> >> >that you would have to apply 25 foot lbs just to get the fronts to turn.
> >> >This is a lot of pressure. You will see this number reported in the
> >> >archives by other list members so don't worry about this aspect. Put
>three
> >> >wheels on the ground and lift the fourth. Stick a torque wrench on the
> >> >wheel and turn it at moderate speed--say--one revolution taking a minute
>or
> >> >so, and measure the torque wrench reading.
> >> >
> >> >>I took it for a 5 minute drive at low speed... (45 degrees F ambient
> >> >>temperature)...
> >> >>It definitely was scrubbing a lot more than my old one on several tries
>at
> >>U
> >> >>turns.
> >> >
> >> >On U-turns there should always be scrubbing. This is normal for any VC.
>The
> >> >real sensation of a bad VC is one of having the breaks slammed on hard
> >> >during a hard turn. In my case, this sensation is present only after
>about
> >> >20 mins of high speed highway driving but the van being jammed to is
>stop
> >> >is striking and unmistabeable.
> >> >
> >> >All vans scrub in tight turns. If you find that in a tight turns the van
> >> >abruptly stops as though someone jammed on the breaks hard then you
>would
> >> >know that you had a defective VC.
> >> >
> >> >The other test to do is to do the famed jackstand test. If you can have
>the
> >> >motor idle at 800 or 600 rpm and have it turn one set of wheels but not
>the
> >> >other then you know your VC is OK.
> >> >
> >> >It is a super pain to perform these tests, but well worth it to protect
> >> >your transmission.
> >> >
> >> >The other test to do outside of the vehicle has been documented in
>previous
> >> >emails of mine to the list.
> >> >
> >> >Your language regarding the symptoms you are experiencing does not
>suggest
> >> >a bad VC.
> >> >
> >> >>So what do you think? Did I get a bad one?
> >> >>Thanks,
> >> >>Bill
> >> >
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >Derek Drew New York, NY
> >> >CEO & Co-Founder
> >> >www.ConsumerSearch.com
> >> >80 South Street, 2nd Floor
> >> >New York, NY 10038
> >> >derekdrew@consumersearch.com
> >> >drew@interport.net
> >> >212-580-6486
> >> >
> >> >Alternate numbers for the industrious phone caller that wants to try
>every
> >> >avenue: 917-848-6425 (cell); 202-966-7907 (Work), 212-580-4459 (Home),
> >> >202-966-0938 (Home).
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Derek Drew New York, NY
> >CEO & Co-Founder
> >www.ConsumerSearch.com
> >80 South Street, 2nd Floor
> >New York, NY 10038
> >derekdrew@consumersearch.com
> >drew@interport.net
> >212-580-6486
> >
> >Alternate numbers for the industrious phone caller that wants to try every
> >avenue: 917-848-6425 (cell); 202-966-7907 (Work), 212-580-4459 (Home),
> >202-966-0938 (Home).
> >
> >
> >
_______________________________________________
Derek Drew New York, NY
CEO & Co-Founder
www.ConsumerSearch.com
80 South Street, 2nd Floor
New York, NY 10038
derekdrew@consumersearch.com
drew@interport.net
212-580-6486
Alternate numbers for the industrious phone caller that wants to try every
avenue: 917-848-6425 (cell); 202-966-7907 (Work), 212-580-4459 (Home),
202-966-0938 (Home).
