Vanagon EuroVan
Previous messageNext messagePrevious in topicNext in topicPrevious by same authorNext by same authorPrevious page (March 2000, week 3)Back to main VANAGON pageJoin or leave VANAGON (or change settings)ReplyPost a new messageSearchProportional fontNon-proportional font
Date:         Tue, 21 Mar 2000 19:38:12 EST
Reply-To:     RAlanen@AOL.COM
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         RAlanen@AOL.COM
Subject:      Re: Painting Van
Comments: To: wsilva@capecod.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Wendy, and others interested Van painters. I've been involved with the painting of automobiles since I was 15 and still do it from time to time if the need arises or the pay is high enough. Anyways, I have some comments to make on the subject of painting. This is a complicated subject and that's why you get so many different opinions and prices for what APPEARS to be the same job. It's very difficult to compare one price with another unless you have a specific set of criteria set out and you make sure the price quotation you get from the different shops is for the same criteria. Subtle changes in materials, methods, and workmanship can result in large differences in price. Please note, all you gringos, that since I live up here in toony-land that my price quotations are in good 'ol Canuk $s which are about 45% less to you Americanos these days. Paint...I will consider only automotive paints in this discussion so those of you who insist on painting your van with some kind of enamel from the local hardware be my guest but that's not what I'm discussing here. There are many different qualities of automotive paints on the market and there's where one of the biggest differences in cost come into play. At the bottom of the scale are acrylic enamels such as Dupont's CENTARI around $100 ~ $150 a gallon or 4/liters however their measuring this stuff these days. Next are the poly urethanes and within the poly urethanes you will find a whole range of qualities. The lower end stuff is not as durable as the high end stuff so as durability goes up so does the price. Up near the high end we have poly urethanes such as Dupont's IMRON at $200 ~ $300 a gallon, the variance being somewhat due to the pigment used with red pigments being the most expensive. And, it WILL take an entire gallon to paint your van properly. Then there's the base coat-clear coat system. This is basically a base coat of colour paint usually a lacquer based paint which is then top-coated by a clear coat of one of the acrylic enamel or polyurethane types of paint. Typically it take a liter of laquer at around $25 ~ $30 and a gallon or less of clear at above prices. All automotive paint companies have comparable paints in all these categories but their price, mixing ratios, application procedures, adaptability and preference by the painter varies widely. These paints must be mixed with reducers and hardeners. Reducers are usually $20 to $30 a gallon. The hardeners range in price of $20 to $50 a liter ! Granted the shop using these materials will not need all the thinners or hardeners in the quantities they must buy for your particular paint job but this is just to give you an idea of the effect on the price of the paint job. The other thing that must be noted is that some paint companies use one type of reducer for their paints and primers and some use a specific reducer for each type of paint and primer thereby requiring the shop to buy more gallons of reducer that they may not use again. There are also a few different grades of reducers with respect to speed of drying. The drying time of the paint can be accelerated by using a speed dry reducer. This technique MAY have a detrimental effect on the quality of the paint job ! So speedy paint jobs are not always a sign a quality paint job. Good work take time ! No way around this. Primers, while we are on the subject, are another widely varying subject. Some of the paints are system matched to specific primers and therefore require the need to use a specific primer which may cost more than another. Some paint shops are willing and able to sort through all these chemicals and find the proper paint/primer combination that is best suited to your specific job and their methods thereby giving you a lower cost paint job. Nonetheless of good quality ! Now we have not touched on the subject of body work. Just imagine all the labour that goes into preparing the vehicle for paint. Not withstanding any needed body work, the paint supplies from above descriptions, sandpaper at $0.75 ~ $1.00 a sheet and miscellaneous shop supplies such as cleaners, rags, masking tape, masking material, etc, etc, etc, and you can see where were going here. As for rust primers and rust inhibitors there's another whole story. Every painter has his own recipe. Some work some do not. Only time will tell. A good written guarantee goes a long way in insuring that the painter tries to do it right the first time. It has been my personal experience that you will NEVER stop the rust from returning. You just delay its return and some delays work better than others. Yes, you can CUT out the rusted metal and replace it with new metal but that can be expensive and even that may not be beneficial if the joint made by the body man is not made, prepped and protected properly. Metal etching primer has been discussed before as a rust preventive primer. My option of this is that it is for applying over NEW, CLEAN metal surfaces to protect them from rusting AND to give the next coat of whatever, usually primer, something GOOD to bond to rather than trying to bond to the fresh metal surface which it doesn't like to do too well. For rusted areas I have had success in firstly cleaning the area very well and that means down in all the pits as well, navel jelly seems to do this quite well. Then applying a coat of rust inhibitor of which there are many to choose from. POR-15, epoxy primer, rust primer etc.,etc.,etc. I seem to have had the best success with epoxy primer but it is expensive and complicated to use since it is a two part system. Primer, reducer, and hardener. Once mixed it will harden and become useless in about 1/2 hour to 1 hour. Therefore every time you need some you've got to mix a bit put it in your spray gun and clean up the gun and other paraphernalia before the primer scraps your tools. Because of this hassle I only tend to use it on large jobs. I have used with success other types that are meant to be applied right from the can or with some reduction with a basic lacquer thinner. I think the real gimmick here is to get the rusted area covered with the rust preventive primer, get it properly dry or set then topcoat it WELL with your paint base primer and then do any minor body work or necessary sanding on top of this surface, taking care to not break the film of rust preventive primer. It's the seal of this film over the rusted area to good non rusted metal the really helps to delay the reoccurrence of the rust in the area from returning by excluding any penetration by air or moisture. Now that I've rambled on for such along time and used up all this bandwidth for some benefit to you volks I hope, let me say this in closing..........I do not consider myself an expert in this field and the technology is always changing and I in no way can keep on top of it. Do your homework. Know what you want and what you want to achieve. Seek out a reputable paint shop with LOTS of good references. AND, last but not least there are no good, cheap paint jobs. If you want cheap go to Earl Shieb or Maacco, don't ask what their doing and take your chances and be happy !

Cheers

Frank Condelli '87 Westy & Lionel Trains STEBRO/Vanagon Stainless Steel Exhaust Systems Almonte, On Visit me on the web.......> <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/Fkc43/busindex.html">Frank Condelli & Associates< /A> or http://http://onward.to/frankcondelli Want to win $10,000? Click to enter!! <A HREF="http://irecommend-it.com/sh.e?22EC343C3B75">iRecommend-It Public Page for RAlanen@aol.com</A>


Back to: Top of message | Previous page | Main VANAGON page

Please note - During the past 17 years of operation, several gigabytes of Vanagon mail messages have been archived. Searching the entire collection will take up to five minutes to complete. Please be patient!


Return to the archives @ gerry.vanagon.com


The vanagon mailing list archives are copyright (c) 1994-2011, and may not be reproduced without the express written permission of the list administrators. Posting messages to this mailing list grants a license to the mailing list administrators to reproduce the message in a compilation, either printed or electronic. All compilations will be not-for-profit, with any excess proceeds going to the Vanagon mailing list.

Any profits from list compilations go exclusively towards the management and operation of the Vanagon mailing list and vanagon mailing list web site.