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Date:         Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:28:38 +0000
Reply-To:     chris weddle <info@2WEDDLE.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         chris weddle <info@2WEDDLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Euro Ring & Pinions For Syncro Available
Comments: To: Derek Drew <drew@interport.net>, Syncro@onelist.com
In-Reply-To:  <4.2.2.20000326202734.00b1fbb0@pop.interport.net>
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Derek,

Just a few comments on the 4wd Syncro ring & pinion info you provided:

Theoretically, the ring & pinion sets with 6 teeth on the pinion should actually be "stronger" than those with 7 teeth because with less teeth, each tooth is larger, therefore stronger. This has proven to be true in racing applications over the years. Of course this is not the end of the story. Experience shows that gears with less teeth will generally wear out faster.

Take for example the 4.83 (6:29) r&p vs. the 4.86 (7:34) r&p. You are less likely to explode the 4.83 r&p while trying to climb a steep, muddy hill. However, a typical 4.83 r&p will last only 150,000 miles of highway driving before wearing out while a 4.86 r&p might last 250,000 to 300,000 highway miles (This assumes that everything else in the trans remains intact and the thing is kept full of oil).

As you know, tall gears are generally stronger than crawler gears. For example, a 4.57 (7:32) is considerably stronger than a 4.86 (7:34), which is in turn much stronger than a 5.43 (7:38), and so on.

I can't tell you the exact percentage difference in strength between the various r&p ratios, but I can assure you that it is significant. Does this mean that you will break your 6.17 (6:37) r&p gears? Probably not unless you really abuse the vehicle. As long as you keep the wheels on the ground (no jumps!), I would guess that you will get a reasonable service life out of your stump puller 6.17 gears, despite the fact that they are much weaker than the stock 4.86 ratio.

What ratios should people be using? I think this is best determined on an individual basis. Michael Sullivan is not alone in wanting taller gearing for his Syncro (i.e. 4.57 ring & pinions instead of the standard 4.86). We actually get more requests for this type of upgrade than we do for the rock crawler gears. Why? Because many people drive their Syncros to and from work every day on the freeway or they go on long road trips that involve many miles of high speed driving. Some of these people like to drive faster than 60 mph and are willing to give up some of the low-speed crawlability in favor of a more pleasurable highway driving experience.

Also, most people that do an engine swap (more power) want taller gears.

For those who do want to crawl, but still need to drive on the pavement from time to time, the 5.43 r&p is a good compromise. We have built several transaxles and front diffs with this ratio, and the customers have been happy with the improvement.

But for those that really want to tackle some nasty terrain and don't mind keeping it at about 55 mph on the highway, the 6.17 ratio is the only way to go. And, as you mentioned, there are taller 3rd and 4th gears available for people who want the best of both worlds (i.e. crawler low gears with normal highway gears).

Regards,

Chris Weddle

> From: Derek Drew <drew@interport.net> > Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 22:05:05 -0500 > To: VANAGON@GERRY.VANAGON.COM, Syncro@onelist.com > Subject: Euro Ring & Pinions For Syncro Available > > I believe I may be able to help owners of Vanagon Syncros to obtain special > ring and pinion sets for their transmission. You would want to do this > primarily in the case that you want to mount tires larger than 27 x 8.50 14 > on your van, such as tires between 29" and 32" tall. The parts alone will > cost you over $1,000 and the labor would be easily another $1,000 still. > > In North America we all have 4.86 ratio (notwithstanding the mistake in > many Bentleys indicating 5.42), which means that at 4,000 RPM you are doing > something like 75 mph (give or take about 5mph) on the highway. This is > with stock tires that are ~26" tall. > > You can mount bigger tires such as the 27 x 8.50 14 size that many syncros > are now running, but this is approaching or at the practical limit with the > 4.86 gears because any larger and your acceleration and low gear rock > crawling ability become unbearably bad. > > Tim and a couple of others are running tires that are bigger than 27" tall, > but they pay for not having also changed their gearsets. > > As some list members are aware, I have purchased 6.17 ring and pinions for > myself recently, although they are not installed yet since I am very busy > launching www.consumersearch.com, which is now up in soft launch, but > secret still and unannounced. > > In any case, the available gear sets are these: > > FRONT DIFF > > 094 409 142 F 32/7 4.57 > 094 409 142 B 34/7 4.86 > 094 409 142 38/7 5.42 > 094 409 142 D 35/6 5.83 > 094 409 142 G 37/6 6.17 > > REAR TRANSMISSION > > 094 517 143 K 32/7 4.57 > 094 517 143 G 34/7 4.86 > 094 517 143 F 38/7 5.42 > 094 517 143 J 35/6 5.83 > 094 517 143 L 37/6 6.17 > > Of those with 6 teeth on the pinion instead of 7 are said to be weaker > because there is one fewer tooth driving things. Daryl and Wolfgang have > both weighed in on this. All of the very latest 2WD vanagons may have the 6 > teeth instead of the 7, if my memory is correct, and Daryl has been > complaining about the results on his workbench. > > Michael Sullivan was asking about the 4.57 gears but I do not recommend > these since there is such a tiny difference from the 4.86 it seems ill > advised given the problems one would have later being unable to source > replacement parts in the event of a breakdown. > > The problem is that all North American VWs are running around with 4.86 > gears and in the event of a breakdown with any other gearset, you will not > be able to buy a used transmission or front differential without also > changing the ring and pinion in it. In the case of the transmission, this > is a big job. You cannot replace just one set: you have to replace both > front and rear unless you take the center drive shaft out to disable 4WD. > > In any case, of the above listed ratios, the two ratios that it makes sense > to import and install are these: > > 38/7: 5.42 > 37/6: 6.17 > > Here's why: > > 1. The 5.83 should be eliminated because it has six teeth and is close to > 5.42, which has 7 teeth on the pinion and is therefore preferred. > > 2. The 5.42 is also preferred because Weedle had some 5.42 front diffs > around, so getting a rear set of 5.42 gears is all that is needed to pair > up with these weddle front diffs to get into action. > > 3. The 5.42s are also a nice friendly ratio for the purpose of matching > gear sets to rpms with available large tires and I recommend them for this > purpose. > > 4. The 6.17s are the other size I believe makes sense because, although > they have the disadvantage of having only six teeth, the 2WD vanagons seem > to have six teeth and they seem to do OK with them, generally speaking. The > Europeans say they hate their 6.17s because it makes their highway driving > too slow. The solution was suggested by Tim Smith, which is to install > 6.17s in combination with Weedle special 4th gears so that the highway > driving is normal again. This combination gives you nice low speeds for > rock crawling and you still get a nice highway speed. The gear size 6.17s > indicate one should drive around on 33" tall tires, but this is too big > even for syncros with the 16" trailing arms, so the Weedle 4th gears seem > like the ticket. The 6.17s are the ultimate in off-road gearsets. > > In any case, it seems advisable that the Americans should standardize on > either 6.17s or 5.42s as alternates to the factory 4.86 ratios we all use > now. There is already some standardization in the direction of 6.17s via my > initiative, and 5.42s through Weddle's special front diffs. We have at > least one list member with a 5.42 front diff but no 5.42 in the rear yet. > You will find him in the archives. > > In any case, the upshot of all of this is that if you want me to get you a > set of any ratio, send me email selecting which of the above pieces you > would like as soon as you read this and can make up your mind. Let me know > within a day or two if you can. This is a little like the recent VC > purchase project, which I did not advertise publicly and where there were > double the number of buyers as there were VCs. If you are too late in > responding to this email, it is OK, but it may mean a six month delay. The > cost is about $985 for a set (front plus rear) plus shipping within the > USA. The preferred installers for a big job like a ring and pinion swap at > the transmission are Daryl (pacific northwest), Wheedle (California > www.2weddle.com), and Dennis Haynes (Long Island; dhaynes57@msn.com). > > If you are waiting for Round 2 of the VC shipment, I still do not have a > ship date on it yet, but we are working on it. > > If you would like to read up more on this subject, search the archives for > posts by me and/or posts about 6.17s and 5.42s by others generally. > ________________________________________________________ > Derek Drew New York, NY & Washington, DC > drew@interport.net > '90 Syncro Westfalia... > ....seen off-road at http://www.tiu.net/~des/vw/drew/index.html > > Also seen at: > http://4wd.sofcom.com/VW/snow.html > http://4wd.sofcom.com/VW/Campers/Campers.html > Note: most valuable Vanagon sites on the planet (for owners) are: > http://gerry.vanagon.com/cgi-bin/wa.exe?S1=vanagon > ftp://gerry.vanagon.com/pub/ >


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