Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:23:44 EDT
Reply-To: kenneth d lewis <kdlewis@JUNO.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: kenneth d lewis <kdlewis@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: 1982 Diesel Intermittent Start Problem (extensive experience)
Frank;
Thoroughly enjoyed reading your post. As for your starter
problem; I would take it to a battery retail store and have them do some
diagnostics on your battery/starter/charging system. If you can not find
one your FLAPS has a roll around test cart that will do about the same,
either way it is usually free.
Things I would be interested in is starter current, sounds like
the design limits are being surpassed. If you have a DVM with Min/Max
voltage hold function you can check a few things.
A> Minimum battery voltage during cranking.
B>Minimum battery voltage across starter during cranking.
C> Voltage drop between battery and starter.
D>Max charging voltage with all electrical consumers on.
I would be glad to do the same checks on our 85 or 86 gas vehicle for
comparison.
What is the CCA rating on your battery? Maybe you would benefit
from parallel batteries to maintain a decent cranking voltage. Check the
trade magazines, I have seen adds for heavy duty starters for high
compression hot rod VW engines.
Drive Safely & Good Luck
Ken Lewis <Kernersville,NC>
86 VW crewcab;60 356B Coupe
--------------------------------------------------
On Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:55:52 EDT Frank Grunthaner <FrankGRUN@AOL.COM>
writes:
>Got to weigh in here.
>
>My Diesel/now GTi Westfalia Vanagon and I have been together since 14
>miles
>were on the odometer and it was delivered to me in July of 1982 in
>Weidenbruck. The number of starters this beast has eaten would make a
>substantial pile next to the garage. The first two were replaced under
>warranty. Although I am writing this without access to my records, the
>average time between replacements runs about 1 year and ranges from 9
>months
>to 14 months. New or rebuilt - statistically insignificant. Identity
>of
>rebuilder - Bosch, Autolight, Herbie's Super Starter Service --- only
>the
>cost varies.
>
>Oh yes, I have replaced the starter switch twice, once on warranty,
>once by
>myself. No impact on the statistics. More than 5 years ago, I added a
>heavy
>duty solenoid right next to the starter and long ago I rewired the van
>with
>number 2 gauge wire from the battery to the front fuse box, from the
>battery
>to starter and solenoid, number 8 wire from the starter switch to the
>intermediate solenoid, and number 4 wire to the starter solenoid from
>the
>intermediate solenoid. I have added heat shields to safeguard the
>starter
>from undue thermal stress. I have even argued to the wife that I
>changed out
>the diesel and put in the 1.8 L 8V GTi gasoline engine to reduce the
>stress
>on the starter (compression difference)! Interesting dismissive
>expressions
>generated by wives, BTW.
>
>In all of this only two things have reminded me of the inexorable
>passage of
>time: taxes and Vanagon starter replacement. When we purchased our
>Ford
>Expedition (wife's car) I was in panic that it couldn't be obtained
>(at that
>time) with manual transmission. How will we be able to start it when
>the
>starter fails? I asked the salesman.
>
>With new modification, I remain convinced that I have now defeated the
>starter eating monster. However, when I am least prepared (too painful
>to
>relate) I again encounter the dead key syndrome. Saturated with wifely
>abuse
>about the reliability of this machine (I try to tell her its only an
>engineering prototype) I again try to trouble shoot the problem.
>Initially,
>after the perfunctory drift start, the problem won't reoccur for 10 or
>more
>starting episodes, then 1 in 5 finally 10 to 1. Nonreproducibility has
>been
>directly related to the availability of time and test equipment.
>Generally,
>DVM in hand, remote starter switch and Vanagon in air, I will find
>that the
>starter terminal shows 12 volts to ground and no spin!. Replace
>starter, 0.25
>volts to ground and starter spinning!
>
>After taking the starter off and testing again, it often reads a
>fraction of
>an ohm to case ground. (It was open on the engine). Looking at the
>brushes
>and the commutator, one sees one or more burned segments.
>
>So: 1) I always keep a spare starter. I have gone to Autolight
>rebuilds
>because the foolishly offer a lifetime warranty. Haven't paid for the
>last
>three starters. Typical personnel turnover at my local Flaps,
>minimizes the
>chance encounter with a counterman with gifted memory.
>
> 2) I have brought a set of taps out to a switchable voltmeter
>(same one
>used by Darrell in the Digitool. One line monitors the voltage at the
>ignition switch addressable terminal, the second measures the voltage
>at the
>starter solenoid, a third monitors the voltage at the starter power
>terminal,
>a fourth measures the voltage drop across the line from switch to
>starter, a
>fifth measures the voltage drop from power terminal on the starter to
>the
>starter case.
>
>Just waiting for this SOB to fail again.
>
>To summarize, my general key failure is always repaired by starter
>replacement. I claim nearly 19 replacements. After each replacement,
>no
>subsequent failure for at least 6 months. Appears to be a burning of
>internal
>contacts caused by ... I don't know. The starter is always dry, never
>covered in oil. It is always tightly bolted down. Often, poor contacts
>have
>seemed to be a problem at the starter, but by the time of repeated
>failure,
>the starter has been damaged. Alistair Bell and I have gone around
>about this
>and his experience is different.
>
>Caveat: I am only discussing the original issue Diesel Vanagon manual
>trans
>starter. Diesel or gas engine, no difference.
>
>Advice: Buy rebuilt starter from local Flaps. Buy the least expensive
>one
>that comes with a lifetime warranty. Buy two and pay the core charge
>if they
>have a foolish special. Next practice .. under the car, release the
>case
>bolts, undo the clutch locator bar, off with the power leads (you
>remembered
>to disconnect the battery, right), rotate to clear clutch slave
>mount, down
>with the old, in with the new. Usually takes 15 to 20 minutes. Longer
>if
>raining, much longer if wife has some comments to make (often
>decidedly
>unconstructive).
>
>Sorry for the length. Had considered an entry for the sticker contest
>in
>which an outline of the starter with the international null symbol
>would be
>the graphic highlight, but the wife thought it was too subtle.
>
>Hope this helps other victims.
>
>Frank Grunthaner
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