Vanagon EuroVan
Previous messageNext messagePrevious in topicNext in topicPrevious by same authorNext by same authorPrevious page (July 2000, week 4)Back to main VANAGON pageJoin or leave VANAGON (or change settings)ReplyPost a new messageSearchProportional fontNon-proportional font
Date:         Fri, 28 Jul 2000 00:11:28 -0400
Reply-To:     "Horace K. Sawyer" <firestream@mindspring.com>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         "Horace K. Sawyer" <firestream@mindspring.com>
Subject:      So whats the procedure-- ATTORNEYS --<grrrr>
Comments: To: Bill Davidson <wdavidson@thegrid.net>
In-Reply-To:  <00e401bff83c$4789c280$b427a2d1@wd1000086onem>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;

Okay, hackles up. : ) Bill, you've declared war on my profession, so prepare to be shelled. <First salvo away>

To quote Bill, who is readily dispensing more tidbits about lawyers: >Wrong! >Attorney's cost money and generally escalate a fight.

<salvo landed> Sounds like you've had bad legal advice, or either *didn't follow* good advice. Sometimes things need to be escalated, sometimes not. Good results are worth money. If you want to win your case, protect yourself, or plan for defense of claims, maybe it would be wise to at least ASK a lawyer about it. May not even cost a dime. Get some ideas, have a conference. Might cost a nominal fee.

>I've saved lots of money over the years by staying out of court and away >from lawyers and just talking reasonably with the other party.

<second salvo away> <BOOM> Your theory seems to be: avoid lawyers from the outset because they cause trouble and cost money for nothing. Let's see about this theory:

But how much money was LOST by not knowing what you were legally entitled to, and not having the means or the knowledge to obtain it? Did you even discuss possible ways to present your claims or defenses, and what the costs would be, and the options? For example, a person cuts trees on your farmland without your consent and takes them. You go to small clalims court. The defendant establishes, and you admit on cross examination that the value of your trees was $500 per tree. Did you know you might be entitled to THREE-TIMES the damages (money) awarded by the court under statute? Probably not. Did you know that a court cannot give you legal advice, tell how to present your case, tell what you are and are not legally entitled to?

Many people get hot, rattle the attorney saber, end up in court and with their 'just >cause' and loose... not only the court battle but also more money in >attorney fees.

Well there are plenty of alternatives in the way of creative legal fees than the simple hourly rate basis. Ever heard of the contingency fee? In some cases I take, I don't get paid unless I COLLECT. It's that simple. How does that hurt YOU in terms of saving money? It doesn't. DEFENDING claims is another story. Contingency fee is not possible usually.

Going to court as your own attorney: If you want to go to court yourself and play Perry Mason and risk an adverse judgment, fine, but wouldn't it help to KNOW the LAW? It's just like old William said. As in Shakespeare-- One who represents himself has a fool for a client. Just because you are RIGHT (legally and morally, or either, or both) does not mean you will in fact WIN. There are no guarantees in court, or even in cases going outside of court. Yes, this happens. Anything can and will happen. Murphy's law very much abounds. You are the litigant. Is your judgment completely free of impairment from emotional and physical involvement? Tell me your heart didn't beat faster when you thought about having to make a argument to the judge, ("Your Honor, I swear under my oath that the defendant owes me that money! He borrowed it and now he is trying to lie his way out of it!") or that you didn't get nervous when the case was about to begin. Physical manifestations can affect judgment too. Your emotional state -- "what if THEY win, not me?" <sweat> Emotions affect judgment. Bad judgment equals disaster 99% of the time. The other 1% is pure luck, I guess. I could go on and on. This is not bull. This is not hype. This is reality.

So, unless you seek counsel with an attorney when trouble is ON THE HORIZON -- not wait 'til it happens, hopefully, then you are in a great position to come out ahead; or at least where you should rightfully be. Why consult? The law is far too complex. Too many laws, too many variables. I mean, come on --- I don't know engines like many of the listees, and I certainly don't know electronics like Darrell Boehler, and David Beierl. Thank goodness for them. But if not for them, I would seek professional guidance somewhere. It wouldn't be as good -- I know, but it would better than me guessing around, and destroying my van in the process. And yes -- I've done that too. BUT, I learned from my mistakes. : ) And like all of us, there are some things that I know better than anyone else.

Rant over -

Emphatic about our legal system and our rights? YOU BET! Emphatic about my client's rights and my cases? Emphatic about the value of good legal counsel? -- you know what the answer is. : )

HK I do not mean anything offensively. I am both a defender and detractor of lawyers. There is good and evil everywhere. But show me the evidence; the fact. Show me the options, show me the knowledge, show me the choices made upon that knowledge, and show me that informed, calculated, (good) judgment was used. That is the best we can do.


[text/html]


Back to: Top of message | Previous page | Main VANAGON page

Please note - During the past 17 years of operation, several gigabytes of Vanagon mail messages have been archived. Searching the entire collection will take up to five minutes to complete. Please be patient!


Return to the archives @ gerry.vanagon.com


The vanagon mailing list archives are copyright (c) 1994-2011, and may not be reproduced without the express written permission of the list administrators. Posting messages to this mailing list grants a license to the mailing list administrators to reproduce the message in a compilation, either printed or electronic. All compilations will be not-for-profit, with any excess proceeds going to the Vanagon mailing list.

Any profits from list compilations go exclusively towards the management and operation of the Vanagon mailing list and vanagon mailing list web site.