Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 16:39:27 -0400
Reply-To: Derek Drew <derekdrew@rcn.com>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Derek Drew <derekdrew@rcn.com>
Subject: Re: [Syncro] Radical Spring Calculations
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000812102022.00ce11d4@mail.abccom.bc.ca>
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The syncro springs material below illustrates remarkable new information:
1. Tim Smith has the 2nd major serious report on the Marshall Springs and
the report is nowhere near as negative as we have heard in the past. He
seems to feel that the Betts are probably the better bet for most on-road
users, but indicates that for very heavy loads or off-road use the Marshall
springs might be preferable. Accordingly, the Marshall springs should now
be considered very much a reasonable choice and probably should be getting
more publicity on the list as a possible alternative.
2. Both David Marshall and Tim below measure the ride height of their vans
with the Marshall Springs and the jury is in: the vans sit at
50.9cm / 20.03" and
50.1cm / 20.235",
respecitvely.
Accordingly, these springs sit by empirical evidence to sit at just
slightly more (an almost insignificant 0.6cm) higher than amount I
postulated in my "Radical Springs Calculations" emails would be ideal. On a
theoretical basis, I postulated that the "ideal" spring for a van that
weighed 4,900lbs would sit at a ride height of 19.7".
In an amended email, I also suggested that this would be appropriate mostly
for vans with extra weight, and that this amount of raise might make a van
of a stock 4,700 "quite unusable."
Interestingly, Tim Smith's email confirmed this general direction in
thinking, saying that for the normal on-road use Vanagon owner, the Betts
springs would be the superior choice, whereas for his heavy load use the
Marshall springs seemed more appropriate.
Accordingly, the state of knowledge seems to be this:
1. There is an unresolved report that the Marshall springs sag over time.
There does seem to be some sagging after the initial install, but we have
no evidence that the amount of sagging continues beyond that point.
Additional evidence on this point would be welcome. Since Ron has disclosed
his supplier, it would appear quite possible that the springs are quality
manufactured.
2. David Marshall has displayed a remarkable degree of restraint while his
product has been attacked over the last year and a half. It must have been
hard for him to sit by and not dive in to refute every negative comment
that was made about his springs. His latest post, reproduced below, mostly
reports facts about his springs and largely continues the pattern of
restraint he has shown in the past. On the other side of things, Marshall
himself was attacked brutally on this last summer over a separate matter,
during which one list member laid out a litany of how it had taken him 6
months of pleading and emails to get a single product that he had ordered
related to the headlights, and how the product was never delivered. There
seemed to be some truth to the email complaint reproduced for us, although
I did not find it as dammning of Marshall as some others may. Possibly I
should have. Marshall in fact owes me something like $100 or so, and it has
been two years and many emails but no funds have been forthcoming.
3. For the syncro owner who plans heavy off-road use, or heavy on-road use
for that matter, there is a possibility the Marshall springs are a better
overall choice than the Betts springs. It would appear based on the
specifications I have been advocating, that I am one of the people to whom
this description applies. As additional reports come in on the Marshall
springs, if there are any, we will find out more on other aspects of spring
quality that may bear on this decision.
4. It is interesting to note that Steve has discovered in the course of
organizing the Betts project that vans manufactured in the later years
'89-'92, sit slightly lower than vans manufactured in, say, the '87 model
year by a small amount--going by memory something like 1/4". This is a
stunning finding, and Steve is the first one to have reported it.
5. Since Marshall has now disclosed his spring specs, it would appear to be
beneficial to the list as a whole if Steve would dig out the Betts springs
specs equivalent to the numbers disclosed by Marshall below so that we may
compare them. Since there appear to be three runs of Betts springs, we'd
want to be looking at three sets of specs. Steve, are you having fun yet?
6. I seem to recall that there were a variety of springs of a variety of
stiffnesses listed in the Winker catalog, so it seems a little silly that
we should all be attempting to reinvent the wheel over here in North
America. If someone has a few moments to peek in Winker or call them and
see what they have there, it would advance our state of knowledge
beneficially.
At 10:20 AM 8/12/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Steven
>To set the record straight, they are hot wound, stress relieved (peened)
>and use high silicone wire. They are manufactured by a company in Richmond
>that have been doing this sort of thing for over 25 years so I think they
>know what they are doing. Ron's Parts Inc also uses them for their RPI
>street and race springs for the A Series VWs If anyone wants them a little
>less stiff - let me know - it can be done - it'll just cost a little more
>due to the smaller run.
>
>I just measured my Syncro Double Cab this morning. When I originally
>installed my springs the front was 51.5cm, right now it is 50.9cm - this
>could be due to a little sag, or it could be due to the way my Syncro is
>sitting today - either way I'm quite happy with the springs and so are my
>customers.
>
>Also for the first time I will tell everyone my "official" rates to end
>this stupid debate. For the record this is the "pink" OEM springs vs my
>custom springs. With a working load of 1473 lbs.
>
> OEM Fast Forward
>
>Rate 419.50 lb/in 471.94 lb/in Difference 12.5%
>Free Length 12.7 in 13.9 in Difference 1.2 in
>Total Coils 7.5 7.75
>
>This results in a 4cm lift at the indicated load - also for everyone's
>information the springs are a little fatter to achieve the extra stiffness.
>this, and Tim didn't seem so negative in an email he sent me about a month
>ago.
>
>Tim, can you weigh in on this, and also take a height measurement of the
>front of your vehicle with those springs in it?
Weighing in at 180lbs, the contender and former.....
Oh, you want an opinion from me, about springs?
yes, I really think so! what was the question again?
Here's my nickels worth really.
van is '87, stock/Westy, dual batteries no one inside when
measuring heights, note: sway bar removed.
1)Stock was something like 17.5", sacked out and prone to scrubbing
the larger 235/15s up front even entering my driveway.
2) Betts springs, height went to 19.5" Wheee! that's more like it,
I still scrubbed, but it took a bigger bump to do it.
3) currently Marshalls, height 20.25" and 20.5" Whee whee whee, I
have no problems over its height. Not sure why the slight height
difference, high side happens to be the kitchen and MFA (my fat ...) so
that's good.
Thoughts about my ride are.....
1) 235/75/15 tires + Audi 15" steel rims is at least 15-20lbs more
weight on each shock. The stock shocks+springs let the tires bounce off
the highway on bumps, since the damping wasn't enough
to resist the upwards inertia from the heavier wheels. Since
I'm still running stock shocks that has not changed greatly. This
is something that folks upsizing might want to consider. I doubt
the effect of BFG 27/8.5/14 on stock alloys would make any big difference
though. Note that this problem was easily fixed by simply lowering the
tire pressure!!! Softer tire absorbs the little bumps and tires provide
some damping due to rubber flex/absorbtion. So on highway is fine. Bad lean
due to absent sway bar.
2) Off road at high speeds, 50mph+, loose pebbles over hardpack
or similar 'hard surfaces'. This kind of driving leads to tire
bounce also, and since the bumps are larger the tire pressure
fix doesn't help as much. The wheel gets thrown and rebounds more
than the stock shock+spring did. This happened with both Betts and
Marshalls, no discernable difference my ass could detect. I drive at the
limit of traction in these roads, and I could be maybe 5mph faster stock.
Seat of the pants guestimate. I'm just back from 2 wks in NFLD/Lab and did
a lot of fast dirt _highways_ etc there. (more later)
3) Betts and Marshalls both cut the tilt down wonderfully due to the
increased stiffness. Not a major difference between two, Marshalls seem
better, I can 'carve' a turn and hear the outer
tire lugs thrumming harder with them. One noticeable diff. is the
Marshalls convey more road 'tremors' through to the body. Just enough
stiffness to get into the truck feel, but only barely, this
is not! a '4x4 pickup' ride in the slightest, just more vibration than with
the Betts.
My opinion..... you can't loose with Betts or Marshalls, but the 'best'
setup if you want to get back your stock ride height and stay on-road
friendly would be the Betts. For me, as I am planning on a front winch,
bars/mount more fuel/propane the Marshalls are perfect. My calcs showed
that another 200-300lbs onto the Marshalls will drop them back to the stock
19.5" height. I also will tolerate a slightly more truck like ride for the
gains offroad.
Right now I'm not 100% happy by a long shot however, due to
wimpy Boge shocks. They are 'as new', all 4 replaced last year. I also
have stock rear springs, sacked out, so this is not a tuned/matched
suspension system in any sense. I had broken the pigtails off both ends of
the kitchen side spring BTW! Fixed now.
I'm a tinkerer at heart, so the shock problem I'll get to asap.
My inclination is to the dash adjustable RS-9000 units, and checking with
Rancho showed a perfect match sizewise for the rears, nothing for fronts.
My van loading for a 3 day weekend vs. 3 weeks is way different, plus
on/off road variations make me want something tunable.
I would love to try the Betts/Marshalls with Bilsteins or OME
shocks, I suspect I'd just end up hating the Boge shocks more.
Until then highspeed driving is compromised a fair bit, on or off
road. Offroad/slow speed is fine, tons of clearance and nice wheel
travel/grip in rougher stuff. No rock fields around here however!
Being a bit cynical, go price a single replacement VW spring, then go buy a
full set of the 'list' springs, you can't loose, price or otherwise!!
Great work guys.
I'm sending a note about NFLD/Lab shortly. HTH, bye, Tim
John M. Brake, Eng/Scientific Technologist
Faculty of Forestry and Environmental Management
PO Box 44555, University of New Brunswick
Fredericton, NB, E3B 6C2
Phone: (506) 447-3110, Fax: (506)453-3538
E-mail: jbrake@unb.ca
_______________________________________________
Derek Drew New York, NY
CEO & Co-Founder
http://www.ConsumerSearch.com/
80 South Street, 2nd Floor
New York, NY 10038
derekdrew@consumersearch.com
derekdrew@rcn.com
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