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Date:         Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:21:18 -0500
Reply-To:     Derek Drew <derekdrew@RCN.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Derek Drew <derekdrew@RCN.COM>
Subject:      Re: Crankshaft Endplay Defies Me--Please Help
In-Reply-To:  <001101c0a59f$3773e860$09b30a18@wntck1.sfba.home.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

What you ask for below is the test I did this weekend and done exactly as you describe and the endplay is zero as in zippo, zilche, nothing at all. I know this because I can manipulate it to have endplay just fine by taking the shims out. Then it has obvious measurable endplay. With the shims, there is no endplay whatsoever. The endplay is so far out of spec, with *either* flywheel that I cannot manipulate it back into spec by simply putting in thinner shims--the only way I can do it is to put in just one shim, or shave metal off the engine side of the flywheel where the flywheel hits the engine.

At 10:08 AM 3/5/01 -0800, you wrote: >I've rebuilt a couple of air-cooled Vanagon engines, which means I'm >an expert by no means, but since when did that stop someone from >offering their opinion? :-) > >First, I've always heard and understood that it's best to have 3 shims >in there. It contributes to the "slipperiness" of the set-up and >longer life. (One "outside" shim wants to go one way, the other wants >to go the other (relative to the 1st) and the middle shim provides the >bearing surface.) > >Second, I would think that an engine with 80k on it, if it's been well >maintained, probably *doesn't* have and end-play problem, and you may >be obsessing over nothing. > >Third, (I'm on shaky ground here, having not rebuilt hundreds of >engines) I'm not surprised that when you release the flywheel it >returns to "0" endplay. Even on a brand-new engine not *every* >surface is perfectly "square" and perfectly "flat" and there's >probably a position that the crank/flywheel assembly "wants" to >return to. (It's been a couple of years since I did my rebuilds, but >I *think* the flywheels in my 2 engines behaved the same way.) > >So, I'd say: > > 1) Assemble your engine without grease, oil or seals. > 2) Position your dial gauge toward the center of the flywheel. > 3) Shove the flywheel toward the rear of the engine and call this >"0". > 4) Pull the flywheel back toward you - some gentle prying with 2 > screwdrivers is OK - and take your reading. That's your >endplay. > 5) Report back. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >----- >Tom Young tomyoung1@home.com >Lafayette, CA 94549 '81 Vanagon >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >----- >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Derek Drew" <derekdrew@RCN.COM> >To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> >Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 9:07 AM >Subject: Crankshaft Endplay Defies Me--Please Help > > > > The email below asks whether it is better to violate Bentley by > > > > a) having only one C shim controlling crankshaft endplay even >through > > Bentley says it is important to have two C shims, or > > > > b) whether it is better to drive around with a crankshaft endplay >reading > > of zero (which it would appear my van has had since I bought it new >in > > 1990) despite the spec in the manual that says crankshaft endplay >should be > > 0.004" > > > > I cannot, apparently, have both at once, so I have to choose between >the > > lesser of two evils. Alternatively, I could try to sand down the >edge of > > the flywheel that sits against the motor to provide the desired >endplay. > > > > Please help with comments--more detail below. > > > > ==================== > > > > About a month ago I referred to a case where I could not get a >reading for > > crankshaft endplay which I was checking while I was doing my clutch. > > > > The list helped with several comments, principal among them were the > > recommendations that: > > > > 1. No oil or grease should be installed on the shims at all or it >can throw > > the reading off > > > > 2. The crankshaft endplay measurement should be taken at the center >of the > > flywheel, not the edge of it > > > > Boston Bob was particularly helpful with comments, which he >delivered to me > > over the phone. Dennis Haynes, who I consider a real pro, told me >basically > > to stop messing with it and leave it the way it was. > > > > Seeking to resolve this matter, I went back in there this weekend >and > > reinstalled everything with no oil or grease on the shims and took >another > > measurement. The result was that I was still effectively getting 0 >(as in > > ZERO) crankshaft end play. I could get a crankshaft endplay only by >flexing > > the flywheel, but after letting go of the flywheel the flywheel >would go > > back to where it had been. > > > > In order to see if I could find out more, I decided to remove the >two shims > > identified in the manual as the C shims (these are the ones that >come in > > various thicknesses) and then remeasure to see if I could get an >endplay > > reading. This worked, and for the first time ever I was actually >able to > > measure an endplay, which was 0.00875". I then installed my other >spare > > flywheel and got a reading of 0.012". > > > > The problem is that both 0.00875" or 0.012" leave such a small space >in > > there that installing the two C shims the way you are supposed to >leaves > > Zero crankshaft endplay. > > > > Either the two C shims that the factory had installed were too large >(thus > > violating their own spec) or I have been losing crankshaft endplay >during > > the engine's first 80,000 miles of life. This later event does not >usually > > happen, however, since the endplay usually increases instead of >decreases, > > according to Dennis and other reports. This is the same engine that >came > > new with the vehicle in 1990. I was composing an email in my head to >send > > to Germany along the lines of, "Yo dudes. You boobed the endplay on >my > > engine!" Sending such an email is not likely to result in a great >benefit, > > so now I have to decide what to do. > > > > Under one strategy I should put those two factory shims back in >there, > > which I determined to be 0.012" thick, and drive around with Zero >endplay > > notwithstanding that the manual says to have at least 0.003" of >endplay. > > > > Or I can decide that the factory goofed and try to put in C shims >that > > provide the correct endplay of 0.004, plus or minus 0.001". >Unfortunately, > > the smallest available C shims are 0.0096" and if I put just one of >these > > in the vehicle, it will bring my endplay down to zero again with the > > resurfaced flywheel I have, and closer to being correct with the >other > > flywheel I have. But the manual is somewhat strident in saying that >you > > must use *two* C shims, not just one. Says the electronic Bentley, > > "CAUTION! Always install three shims to obtain correct crankshaft >endplay." > > (They say three, because they mean to include a third shim that is >there.) > > > > So I have to violate one rule or the other: I either have to install >the > > two thinnest C shims, which are 0.0096" thick each and have zero >endplay, > > or install just one shim and have the correct endplay but be in >violation > > of Beneley's spec that says to use two C shims. > > > > Note for reference that I did these measurements with the seals out >and not > > in the way. > > > > THERE IS ONE OTHER ALTERNATIVE: > > > > I guess I could take the flywheel over to a resurfacer and ask that >they > > remove a layer of the metal that rests up against the shims. This >way, by > > making the mating surface of the flywheel less, I can use two C >shims and > > also meet the manual's spec. Alternatively, I could rest the >flywheel on a > > piece of sandpaper I have here, and spin it around for awhile to see >if > > this technique would cause the desired reduction in thickness of the > > flywheel by, essentially, sanding it away. Not sure if this is >something I > > can do in my garage or whether it requires a special machine to make >it > > super flat. Possibly I could do it with a file. > > > > Any and all expert or inexpert comments solicited. > > _______________________________________________ > > Derek Drew New York, NY > > CEO & Co-Founder > > http://www.ConsumerSearch.com/ > > =========================== > > "Best Expert Review Site" > > for product reviews on the Internet > > Jan. 2001, PC World Magazine > > ========================== > > 80 South Street, 2nd Floor > > New York, NY 10038 > > derekdrew@rcn.com > > 212-580-6486 > > > > Alternate numbers for the industrious phone caller that wants to try >every > > avenue: 917-848-6425 (cell); 202-966-7907 (Work), 212-580-4459 >(Home), > > 202-966-0938 (Home), 978-359-8533 (fax [efax]), 212-269-3188 >(Seaport office). > >

_______________________________________________ Derek Drew New York, NY CEO & Co-Founder http://www.ConsumerSearch.com/ =========================== "Best Expert Review Site" for product reviews on the Internet Jan. 2001, PC World Magazine ========================== 80 South Street, 2nd Floor New York, NY 10038 derekdrew@rcn.com 212-580-6486

Alternate numbers for the industrious phone caller that wants to try every avenue: 917-848-6425 (cell); 202-966-7907 (Work), 212-580-4459 (Home), 202-966-0938 (Home), 978-359-8533 (fax [efax]), 212-269-3188 (Seaport office).


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