Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 22:19:45 -0700
Reply-To: David Marshall <vanagon@VOLKSWAGEN.ORG>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: David Marshall <vanagon@VOLKSWAGEN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Update on Waterboxer vs Transplant Power Options
In-Reply-To: <3B1BA986.3026C561@islandnet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Hey... where are you getting the 113ft/lbs and 93hp figures from? Pretty
weird engine!
Our kit is what you make it to be!
Most customers install a 1.8L Digifant II Motor due to the cost savings:
1.8L 105hp and 114ft/lbs
Other customers install the VW or Audi 2.0L - with the standard cam and
timing it produces:
2.0L 115hp and 122ft/lbs
Really most of this is a load of bull as it depends on the APPLICATION. If
you install one of the above engines in a Vanagon chances are you will get
MORE power as you will have a less restrictive exhaust system. This would
be about 2 to 3hp more. But it could be down a few hp due to the weather,
bad fuel, etc. It could be up a few HP due to timing, mixture etc... I take
the power and torque figures are a guide line - not an exact figure.
David Marshall
Fast Forward Automotive Inc.
4356 Quesnel Hixon Road
Quesnel BC Canada V2J 6Z3
mailto:info@fastforward.ca <mailto:info@fastforward.ca>
http://www.fastforward.ca <http://www.fastforward.ca>
Phone: (250) 992 7775 FAX: (250) 992 1160
. Vanagon Accessories and Engine Conversions
. Transporter, Unimog and Iltis Sales
. European Lighting for most Audi and Volkswagen models
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com]On Behalf
Of Mark Keller
Sent: June 4, 2001 8:30 AM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Update on Waterboxer vs Transplant Power Options
I'm adding some additional engines to the chart the TII CO's Golf 8 V
engine, and the current South African 5 cylinders for comparison. A
minor note, that the South African VW web site does not list a 4
cylinder option for the Bus only the 2.3 and 2.5 liter five cylinder are
listed.
An additional note, I looked at the TII co web site for information on
the engine they sell-- I am impressed that this "kit" has everything
needed for a driveway conversion. But must admit I was quite turned off
by the hoopla. The waterboxer power is listed incorrectly at 95 hp at
3200 RPM. and should be 4400 RPM. The 132 ft lb. of torque at 3200 RPM
claimed by TII Co's 8 V 2.0 liter engine doesn't appear to be confirmed
by the South African Web site specs for the 2.0 liter 8 v, which lists
max. torque @ 125 ft at 2400, which is good low end grunt by the way.
Another hype was the "Super clean" emissions at 4 ppm HC. With a cat
this should be zero, recently Steve Blackham reported a non cat emission
result of hc in the 30 ppm on his Vanagon. The foot note on TII CO claim
explains that this isn't a 2.0 emissions test, but then seems to suggest
that the block is stamped 1.8 and so it's ok; Frankly I'm not sure what
is being implied. For all good things on this site, it should be cleaned
up!
Then other revision is the updated to wheel horsepower numbers. I
originally posted a 30% loss as generally accepted which it correct for
200 hp engines, not us. The figure of 20% more in line for 100 -125 hp
engines.
Engine @3800 Rpm 65 MPH Cruise Crank Torque & hp
Wheel Torque & hp
Stock Waterboxer 112 ft lb. 82 hp 90
ft lb.
66 hp
Rockers and Chipped 128 ft lb. 94 hp 102
ft lb.
75 hp
Lilly's (low guess) 143 ft lb. 104 114 ft
lb. 83 hp
Marshall I -4 113 ft lb. 82 hp 90 ft
lb. 66 hp
Subaru 2.2 137 ft lb. 100 hp 110 ft lb.
80 hp
Subaru 2.5 166 ft lb. 120 hp 133
ft. lb. 96 hp
TII CO 2.0* 114 ft lb. 82 hp
91 ft. lb 66 hp
TII Co 2.O Chipped 137 ft lb 99 hp
114 ft lb 83 hp
SA 2.3 5 cyl 130 ft lb 94 hp
104 ft lb 80 hp
SA 2.6 5 Cyl 165 ft lb 120 hp
133 ft lb 96 hp
Notes: I used the dyno figure from
http://www.autothority.com/pe/newitems_20.html for TII Co 2.0 8v 2.o add
15% more to the dyna jet figures since VW claims only 15% loss for a
front drive vehicle. The SA 2.6 figures are just a practical guess, as
the spec show 84 hp at 3000 rpm and 134 hp at 5000 rpm and I could not
locate a dyno for this. I did find a "testimonial for a lubricant based
on a 2.5 Caravelle, it's below.
I kinda expect some flak for the low numbers on the stock TII CO
engine, but I find no verifiable source to support the torque claims on
their Website. They appear to be claiming "chipped" specs for a stock
engine. The engine's weight is unknown too. So if any one reading this
has shipping weight for the TII CO motor I'd appreciate it. In lieu of
that I'm going to say that the engine block is iron, and should weigh
MORE than a waterboxer which is around 400 lbs. The Subaru is lighter
at around 300 lbs.
My conclusion is that the TII CO transplant is convenient, and has a
warranty along with a current electronic management system. which is
chippable, see the Url I listed But it does not seem to have any more
miracle cure for power in the Vanagon, especially the heavier Westy than
other less expensive options. What seems to be the trick on inline
fours is to claim the higher revving horsepower which I personally don't
believe anyone LIKES to do on a daily driver.
The chipped 8v 2.0 numbers seem to indicate that the 2.0 8v is as
powerful as the 2.2 Subaru, albeit heavier by at least 100 lb. maybe
more. The ease of installations and peace of mind come at a price too. I
think Ken posted $7000 for a turn key TII CO, on top of the wait.
After doing the research and writing this post I feel I have a clear
Idea about what options are out there.
Sincerely,
Mark Keller
91 Carat
Cowichan Bay, BC
Testimonial for UNIGLIDE lubricant. Note that SA 5 cylinder have
troubles at time too!!!
SCOTTAIR
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa
Re: Uniglide FRC
Dear Sir
My Plant Hire Company has been in operation for many years.
Not only do I use your product in all my plant hire machinery, but
also in my off-road rally and personal vehicles.
On a recent occasion I took my family on a 2 000km trip to
Kimberly. This was accomplished in our VW Caravelle 2.5 which
had been treated with Uniglide FRF. Before even leaving
Pietermaritzburg, I heard a slight rumble in the motor but decided to
push on regardless.
On our return I removed the sump and inspected the bearings.
No. 3 bigend bearing had lost all the white metal and the copper
colour of the shell running directly on the crankshaft.
When micing the crank we found no noticeable wear or need to
polish the crank. New bearings were fitted and we have since
completed a further 900km.
It is my opinion that without Uniglide FRF we would never have
completed our trip to Kimberly.
At present my Caravelle 2.5 has 146 000km on the clock.
Thank you so much for a wonderful product.
Regards
B. M. Scott
Proprietor