Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 13:48:22 -0700
Reply-To: Bill Kasper <dragonlist@IPMTS.UCSC.EDU>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Bill Kasper <dragonlist@IPMTS.UCSC.EDU>
Subject: Re: censorship
In-Reply-To: <004f01c0f8f9$5819b9c0$0200a8c0@Bill>
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
on 6/19/01 12:52 PM, Bill N at freeholder@starband.net wrote:
>> we must remember, this list is moderated by tom, and there are certain
>> rights of ownership that go with this moderation. hell, he has the
> servers
>> and the archives, right? so tom can define porn any way he wants, and
>> impose his will upon us with nary a second thought
>
> Yes, he has the power to do that. Having the power doesn't make it right.
> I have the power to object, and I did.
you do have the power to object, as did all the people who objected to the
link...as does tom, who did, and made what is most likely the ultimate
ruling. if this were truly a "freedom of speech" thing, then great, your
point is understood. but it's not. tom (whoever moderates/hosts a
listserv) is running a benevolent dictatorship, subject to the rules of
society *he* sees as common, not the rules *you* see as common.
>> if tom makes the decision that it should not be, i accept that
>> decision...truthfully, it's his to make, regardless of whether i accept it
>> or not
>
> It is his decision, and I accept his right to make it. I hope he respects
> my right to disagree. It does not, in truth, really affect me, as I have no
> interest in posting links of that type. I still think the decision was
> wrong, and, worse, biased in favor of some religious/moral views at the
> expense of others equally valid.
i think you could say that last sentence about just about any bias, so it is
a null argument on its face. we can take this all the way down the line, if
you like, but the point, for me, is that it is his decision, however *he*
sees the world. we're guests in *his* universe.
>> ultimately, if i don't like tom's methods of moderation, i can go
> away...or
>> give tom enough grief so that *he* goes away.
>
> I can also protest what I see as a wrong decision. I protested when Coyote
> banned the discussion of where to best store your firearm in a Vanagon. I
> always speak up on issues of free speech.
that was coyote's decision, again for right or wrong. as you had the right
to protest, unless coyote decided that any protestors would be cut off the
list...again, his right. but i don't think that so many people would want
to be part of a list where the moderator cuts people off for protesting.
and i am sure people left the list, never to return, because of his ban.
perhaps others stayed because they were bored with the argument and would've
left if it had continued to play out.
>> anyone else want the headache
>> and cost of hosting the vanagon list?
>> speak up, i can't hear you...
>
> I have been involved with this list for a long time. I was involved when it
> was in California, and when it was moved to Canada, I was one of those who
> volunteered to host it. When it moved again, I volunteered again. I have
> also, over the years, donated money on several occasions. I have supported
> the list for a long time. If you can't hear me, you aren't listening.
well, i haven't been here *that* long. but i have seen this argument about
free speech played over and over and over on various listservs, to the
detriment of the listserv.
that you have done your bit is lovely, and i applaud you for it. perhaps
that gives you the right to argue your point more voiciferously; perhaps
not. most of the time folks who protest the actions of a listadmin often
are the ones least interested in supporting the list. in your case, that is
not true.
and trust me, i am listening. i am also not in a position to do anything
but support tom in this forum at this moment in time, and hear you loud and
clear. i should hope you can hear what *i* am saying, as well.
all the best, bill.
rvc: got my k&n air filter today. hooray!
bill
'87 syncro westfalia
http://www.scruznet.com/~kasper/pics/westy/
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