Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 15:23:35 -0700
Reply-To: Steve Schwenk <steve@SYNCRO.ORG>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Steve Schwenk <steve@SYNCRO.ORG>
Subject: Vanagon Custom Coil Springs: Production Date and last Call
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I just spoke with the manufacturer and they have pushed
their production date back 7-10 days on the 2WD vanagon
westfalia springs. They estimated a delivery date of
9/11 when i ordered them 2 months ago. They will now
be done on or before the 21st and will ship out from me
within a week of that date. There will ne no delays
beyond that. The 9/11 date was their best estimate 2
months ago.
I have two sets still available and ot spoken for. I
can increase the order till the end of today as they
begin winding the springs tomorrow. They then have to
shot peen, test and powder coat them. If you would
like a set please let me know before 5:00 p.m. west
coast time.
I will be sending out shipping cost info and asking for
final pmyt. from those who have already placed orders
shortly.
The production springs will be a little different from
the prototypes. I have increased the front spring rate
and load height a little more to get rid of a little
bouncing that was still present and to level the van
front-to-rear a little more. They will still be a
little taller in the rear on an empty van....depending
on what van they go in, i.e. diesel, 2.1, tiico, etc.
there is some variance from van-to-van as well, but not
too much.
I encourage those who are getting them to go out now
and buy some hard industrial grade plastic from a
plastics shop for leveling shims if you want your van
level from left-to-right. The westys will still list
to the left even with new springs since that is a
result of all the extra weight on the left side of a
westy. A shim of 1/8" to 1/4" up front, and 1/4" tin
the rear should level most vans. This is not an exact
science and some vans will require slightly more
shimming than others to be level. there is some info
in the archive on what other people have used with
success.
Please proceed with caution as there is not a lot of
space for a shim on the front spring (the shim is
placed between the rubber cap that fits over the top of
the spring and the body of the van where the rubber cap
rests). Others have used 1/4" spacers without
problems, but i would not go much beyond that or there
is some risk that the rubber cap could become
dislodged, thus unseating the spring, and that could
lead to disaster. PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK.
The rears are more forgiving and there is room for a
shim several inches thick, plus they are much easier to
change and thus experiment with. I would start with
1/4" there.
The front shim looks like a big washer when you are
done. there needs to be a hole in the middle for the
shock to fit through. The actual shim is only an inch
or so wide with the big hole in the middle. It is
easiest to make the shims with the van apart. You can
then use the shock rubber as a template to trace out
the shim onto the plastic, then you cut the hoe in the
middle with a large hole saw or other cutting
implement. On the rears, use the big rubber pad that
fits above the spring for a template. Again, there is
a hole in the middle, but much smaller that the front
shim.
I have the dimensions for shims for syncros, but I am
not positive they will work on 2wd. Hopefully, someone
will post the dimensions they use so those who are
having mechanics install the springs can make the shims
and then give them to the mechanic to install with the
springs.
P-mail me if you need more info. I am not currently
subscribed to the list. Also, it would be great if
those who are currently using leveling shims could
share their specs with the list as a bunch of people
will be installing new springs in the near future.
Steve
________________________________________________________
http://www.concentric.net/~Sxs/springs.shtml#2WDsprings
________________________________________________________
OVERVIEW OF SPRING STATS & GOALS:
The primary goal with the custom springs is to improve
handling and stability. The springs will give a firmer
feel, will improve stability in cross winds, will
improve cornering, will provide a modest increase in
available suspension travel and will make your van
handle much better with a typical camping load than
the stock springs. If installed with new shocks, they
will make a van feel like a new vehicle (no kidding!).
A secondary goal is to increase usable suspension
travel by increasing ride height modestly. The springs
are based on the height of the 1985 vanagon westy
spring, the tallest spring VW made for the vanagon.
Thus how much increased height you get will depend on
what year your van is. The early 80s vans will get the
greatest lift in terms of increased ride height
(roughly 1/2" depending on how much your old springs
are sagging). Later vans will get a moderate increase
in height (1/4 - 1/2"). 1985 vans will see only a
modest increase in height (roughly 1/4"). List member
Todd last has a photo of the springs installed on his
1988 Westfalia at:
http://rubatoguy.home.mindspring.com/springs.html
The extra height gives additional usable suspension
travel. This is nice on rougher roads, but especially
when traveling with a full camp load. Generally, the
new springs will allow the van to ride when loaded at a
height and with the suspension travel available that
the van would normally ride empty on the stock
springs. The increase in height was kept modest and
within VW specs so as not to adversely affect cornering
on the highway. A lower vehicle will corner a little
better than a taller vehicle. Stiffer
suspension/springs will also corner better than softer
suspension/springs.
The increase in stiffness was kept modest to ensure
that the stock shock damping will be adequate for the
spring rate, and to keep the suspension supple and
responsive. However, the increase in stiffness is
enough to address the sloppy wallowing feeling, poor
cross-wind stability and mushy cornering the stock
springs on a westy typically have. It is impossible to
make one spring that will be ideal under all
circumstances, but these are a definite improvement
over the stock springs. Often, stock suspension is
designed to ensure the vehicle "feels" the way the
manufacturer believes a customer would want it to feel
when taking a test drive off of the show room floor.
These are designed to "feel" the way a seasoned westy
owner wants them to feel and perform when the van is
loaded up for a typical camping trip.
The springs are made by a major spring manufacturer
that has been in business since 1868 (not a typo).
They first made springs for horse drawn covered
wagons! They currently manufacturer springs for major
national brand aftermarket suspension/parts
distributors that you see in car mags and on the web.
The springs are hot wound, shot peened and powder
coated. Each spring is tested to ensure it is within
specs before being shipped. The springs will sag about
1/4" or so after initial installation (after one good
trip in a loaded van), but much of that is just the
seating of the components, not the actual sagging of
the spring. There have been no reports of the syncro
springs sagging more than this in the 2+ years since
the first sets were sold, and they get a much heavier
workout than the typical 2WD vanagon.
PRICE & ORDERING & SHIPPING
The price of the springs is $400 for a set of 4 +
shipping (50lbs) + 8% sales tax for California orders.
This is less than 1/2 what the stock springs cost. The
manufacturer has given a delivery date of Sept. 11th.,
meaning they will be ready to ship the second
week of September, 2001, or shortly thereafter.
A $100 deposit is required to reserve a set. The
balance is due before the springs will be shipped.
Some extra sets will be available, but when I did this
with the syncro springs, all of the extras were sold
within 2 days of receiving the order from the
manufacturer. I simply do not have the resources to
stock large quantities of the springs. To reserve a
set using a credit card via PayPal.com, go to the
bottom of the page at the URL below:
http://www.concentric.net/~Sxs/springs.shtml
To reserve a set with a check, send the deposit to:
Steve Schwenk
8332 Geary Blvd.
San Francisco CA 94121
(415) 387-3434
UPS Shipping costs will range from roughly $35 on the
west coast to $50 for the east coast for the 50lbs
package. This is about double what shipping costs were
last year due to fuel price increases.
FEEDBACK ON THE 2WD PROTOTYPE SPRINGS MADE IN MAY 2001:
Below is some feedback from the people who have
installed the prototype springs we had made in May
2001.
__________
From: Mark Drillock <drillock@earthlink.net>
To: Steve Schwenk <steve@SYNCRO.ORG>
Steve, I got the springs and yesterday we installed
them in Mike Snow's 83 ASI Camper. Due to a more even
layout of camping gear it did not have the lean of a
Westy even with the old springs. He also has recently
new noname Pep Boys
shocks.
The new springs are pretty level front to back and side
to side, slightly higher in the rear. The new springs
raised his 83 by 1/2" at each corner.
The old springs gave a ride height if about 15 1/2" -
15 3/4" all around and the new are 16" - 16 1/4".
The ride is greatly improved, less sway on corners, a
more stable ride in general. We took it on a very bumpy
route and the difference was dramatic. Even speeding up
for the deep dips resulted in no bottoming out. There
was no time for a freeway test but today we will get
back to it.
I can't believe how well the first run works so far.
More testing is needed of course. I am anxious to try
them in a
Westy. My 82 Westy already has the taller 85 passenger
springs installed so I am curious how the ride height
will be.
thanks,
Mark
_______
Subject: 2WD Prototype Springs - Day 2 (long)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 17:18:10 -0700
From: Michael Snow <mwsnow@HOME.COM>
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
I drove around quite a bit today with the new springs.
Like Mark said, I have a 1983 ASI diesel camper. I do
not unload it when not camping, with the exception of
draining the water tank. ASI campers are constructed
from passenger model vans, and they do not have heavy
duty springs like the later Westfalia. I am currently
using Gabriel gas shocks, which are a bargain at $22
from Pep Boys. Like most of us, I drive the same
sections of road all the time. I figure that the
difference in the springs will be the most dramatic in
my van due to the pitifully sagging and heavily loaded
passenger springs that I am used to.
My initial impression of this spring design:
1. Ride height is increased about 1/2 inch all around.
It's not a Westy, so it doesn't lean to the left, even
with the worn out stock springs. It's hard to tell
exactly, but the van seems level front to rear instead
of the nose-up attitude that many of the older ones
have. If anything, the rear is slightly taller.
Tomorrow, I'll have it loaded with passengers so I can
look at it again. My guess is that it will be close to
perfectly level.
2. Handling in general is much improved. Buffeting
from large trucks passing at highway speeds is
significantly decreased. At my normal entrance to the
freeway, there is a decreasing radius on-ramp that I
would not normally drive faster than 25 MPH. Today I
did it at 32, and felt confident that I could have gone
a little faster as long as the pavement is dry. The
reduced body roll is very confidence inspiring, and
could lead me to actually find the limit of adhesion of
my 185R14 Yokohama tires.
3. Ride quality is improved dramatically. Much more
firm, but still pliant and comfortable. The
limitations of my bargain shocks are obvious with these
springs, as they do not have sufficient damping to
eliminate rebound. I think a set of Bilstein gas
shocks would be well suited for the stiffness of the
springs. Mark has them in his diesel Westy, and the
ride is exceptionally nice.
4. When we drove yesterday, we intentionally went
through some local streets with large dips for water
drainage. There are grooves ground into the pavement
at every one of these where some unsuspecting driver
has bottomed out from going too fast. I usually slow
down to about 10 MPH when crossing them to prevent the
camper (and all the stuff in it) from bouncing too
hard. With the new springs, we were running through
them in excess of 25 MPH with no bottoming of the
spring and no wheel hop. My pile of junk (we all have
one, don't we?) in the back of the van stayed put. The
dishes and pans in the cabinets stayed quiet. As I
said, my shocks are not up
to the task for this type of driving, though they are
fairly fresh and still have good gas pressure in the
cartridge. As a side note, we tried this with the new
springs in the front only. The rear end took quite a
beating until we put the new springs back there too.
A short comment on the condition of my old, stock
springs. Like all other progressive rate springs I
have ever worked with, the small diameter section of
the wire is completely collapsed. Even when removed
from the van, thin section does not expand. It sits
flat, like some sorry looking steel cinnamon roll,
unable to contribute anything to the ride of the van.
Sad... I only have a couple years experience with
Vanagons, but this has happened to every progressive
coil spring that I have ever seen on the off-road
trucks and SUVs where you see them a lot. I greatly
prefer a thoughtfully designed, single rate spring.
I know now how the guys that test exotic cars for the
magazines must feel. They get to drive cool stuff, and
then have to give it back :( From my initial
impression, I would not hesitate to buy a set of these
springs for an older camper.
Mike Snow
_________
Subject: Re: Springs
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 15:32:27 -0700
From: Todd Last <Rubatoguy@mindspring.com>
To: steve@syncro.org
Good evening.
I got the springs in, and thought I'd give you an
initial report. I have a '88 Westy and I was moving
from H&R 'sport' springs to the new ones.
[....]
Well, the good news is that the ride is just about
perfect. It is so EXCELLENT to be able to go over bumps
and not jar your fillings from your teeth. The new
springs have a little
bit of wallow front to rear compared to the H&R but are
100 times better than I recall the original springs to
be. Very
stable in turns. I have not driven enough to give a
good report, but so far I'm really happy with them.
Next weekend I'll put in the Bilsteins ( they should be
here by then) and I'm going to replace the stabilizer
bar link bushings as they were somewhat deformed. I'm
also planning to replace the large strut-bar bushings,
I suppose the only way to do that is to remove the
strut bar from the a-arm. Then I'm going to have it
aligned, as I'm sure I'm way off as the van was aligned
for the H&R springs.
Steve, I don't think you could have done much better -
the springs seem to be a perfect compromise between
height, ride and handling.
I'll follow up with the measurements later this week. I
should have photos by then too.
regards,
Todd
P.S. I don't recommend replacing springs on a 90+
degree day!
___________
Subject: Spring Stats:
Date: 25 Jun 2001 11:30:03 -0700
From: Ryan Alfonso <ryan_alfonso@ceruscorp.com>
To: Steve Schwenk <steve@syncro.org>
Hi Steve! The ride quality on the springs is really
nice actually, even with the Bilstein's. Installed on
the 14th by VolksCafe guys. The quick measurements
I've done so far show the rear to be about 1/2 to 3/4
of an inch higher than the front (assuming equal hight
of the fender lips). This is WITH the Tiico engine, no
spare up front, and a full load of propane. I'm parked
in a good flat spot at work here to day, so at lunch
I'll run out and take some accurate measurements and
get back to you.
I dunno whether it's the springs or the 15" wheels but
the thing rides like a dream now. No more of that butt
puckering when whippin' around a turn.
______
Re: Spring Stats:
Date: 02 Jul 2001 12:51:07 -0700
From: Ryan Alfonso <ryan_alfonso@ceruscorp.com>
To: <steve@syncro.org>
Hi Steve! Answers!
1.) perfect stiffness. Better feel and control
without excess harshness. Between these springs and
the 15 inch wheels, it's getting closer to being the
porshce camper I've always dreamed of.
2.) didn't do "before" measurements on ride height.
Seems about the same compared it to other Vanagons.
[...]
-Ryan
