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Date:         Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:35:42 -0800
Reply-To:     Michael Snow <mwsnow@COX.NET>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Michael Snow <mwsnow@COX.NET>
Subject:      Re: aircooled transaxle with 1.6NA diesel   (LONG)
In-Reply-To:  <22.222688c6.2978b073@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

In the interest of greater understanding of Steve's experience with the aircooled transmission and 1.6NA combination, have a look at this page on Tom Carrington's web site.

http://volksweb.relitech.com/helmut/GEARBOX.HTM

The aircooled 091 transmissions all have the same forward gear ratios but different final drive (differential, ring/pinion) ratios. 4th gear changed a miniscule amount over the years. It is not important for this discussion.

Not coincidentally (look at the case) the diesel 4 speeds have the same ratios for 1st through 4th gears as the aircooled models. Again, .03 is not enough for me to consider a significant difference.

By using the early style shift linkage, it is possible to have an aircooled transmission with the same or even lower gearing than a diesel tranny. The bellhousing, input shaft, and shifter components what makes these transmissions different. The aircooled vs. diesel discussion is pointless unless you correctly identify the transmissions being compared.

From what I have seen so far, the DZ transmission is the most common model on diesel Westfalia models in North America. It has the same gearing as the DY model (5.86:1 ring/pinion) in the chart. The less common model is the DM, with a higher 5.43:1 ring/pinion ratio. Notice that these are the same ratios used with the 1600cc aircooled engine (same pathetic power levels in a 5000 pound van).

Notice also that the DX (094) 5 speed used in 1983 North American diesels has only slightly lower overall gearing in high gear than the DK model used in aircooled Vanagons.

DK 0.852 x 4.57 = 3.89364 DX 0.77 x 5.43 = 4.1811 DM 0.85 x 5.43 = 4.6155 DZ 0.85 x 5.86 = 4.981

Because we hate to change clutches, I felt compelled to compare the overall gearing of the highest listed 1st gear ratio for 1.6 diesels with the DK. The difference is very small:

AAS 1.6TD 5 speed 4.11 x 4.83 = 19.8513 DK 2.0l 4 speed 3.78 x 4.57 = 17.2746

I can carefully get my 5 speed Westy rolling in 2nd gear without feeling too badly for the clutch or lugging the engine. (DX 2nd gear is 2.33 x 5.43 = 12.6519).

It is probably possible to make good use of the DK gearing with the 1.6NA engine as long as the engine is in good condition and the terrain is not very steep. I would be willing to try this, especially with a passenger van (mine are both campers). IMHO, diesel Vanagons were made marketable only by the 55 MPH national speed limit of the early 1980s. You probably couldn't give them away at the dealership today.

Hats off to you, Steve. I'm glad that someone had a transmission to experiment with. My (often inadequate) math appears to support your seat of the pants observation. I guess I should stop walking past those aircooled Vanagons in the junkyards 8-)

Food for thought, Mike Snow

-----Original Message----- From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com]On Behalf Of Steven Denis Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 14:56 To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: Re: aircooled transaxle with 1.6NA diesel

In a message dated 1/17/02 5:46:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, mdlind@rica.net writes:

<< Having the same torque at the flywheel at any given road speed would not translate into having the same torque at the wheels with two differently geared transmissions. >>

Don't do it then..I think I've covered this reallly really well.

I KNOW all this ratio crap (I said crap...can I say crap?) I'm an *engineer* for herbie's sake!.. HOWEVER the air-cooled tranny works QUITE well in the diesel van.. Instead of going buzzing around like an escapee from the Luftwaffa, "arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrhhhhhhh!" you drive it like a trailways bus.."Hoooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.." NOBODY who has not tried it can tell you how well it works/doesn't and it's NOT a big deal to undo if you DON'T like it! I'm done with this subject (insert cheering here) steve...


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