Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 09:02:52 -0800
Reply-To: Joseph Fortino <fortino1@ONEBOX.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Joseph Fortino <fortino1@ONEBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: '80 Westfalia-- best way to drive over passes
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Stan is really Lance Armstrong I knew it, hey now i know what
makes hit ride so well in the hills!
snip>
'Im in Texas so I have to watch a movie to see a mountain but I can
attest to fighting 20 - 30 MPH head winds for 250 mile runs and I
consider these equal to climbing mountains. A <-- Armstong? hehe
--
Joseph Fortino
fortino1@onebox.com - email
---- Stan Wilder <wilden1@JUNO.COM> wrote:
> Thoughts on this appreciated.
> {Again, in my experience, by reducing my speed, and keeping the van
> in
> the "sweet spot" of 4,400-4800 rpm.}
> --------------------------------
> We are discussing Air Cooled Type IV engines below. 80 Vanagon.
> Here are my thoughts: I don't see this RPM range as practical: The
> general rule of thumb is 5000 RPM is where the Type IV crankshaft starts
> to disentegrate the rest of the engine. Its a full blown explosion
> at
> 6000 RPM after a short run (Visa Jake Rabe engine tests in ideal
> operating conditions).
> I have no idea how long you expect your engine to last but I've seldom
> needed to turn my engine over 4200 RPM to keep up with traffic,
> accommodate persistent head winds and climb hills.
> {The engine will never get anywhere as hot in the 10 or 15 mile of
> climb
> as it would if you hit the hills fully warmed up in the heat of the
> day
> doing 60 mph BECAUSE THE ENGINE ACCUMULATES HEAT OVER TIME}
> I'm in Texas so I have to watch a movie to see a mountain but I can
> attest to fighting 20 - 30 MPH head winds for 250 mile runs and I
> consider these equal to climbing mountains. A nice two mile grade like
> I
> had outside of Colorado Springs is just an occasional test of your
> engine.
> In these long 70 - 75 mph runs , against head winds, I've seen engine
> oil temperatures that reached 260 degrees and stayed at that for several
> hours (I opted to take a break and let the engine cool down). With
> a
> little practice I found that I could reduce speed in 4th gear down
> to 62
> -65 mph and drop the oil temp back into the 204-220 range.
> I just can't envision turning my engine 4400-4800 RPM in third gear
> to
> maintain 70 MPH or for any other reason for an extended time frame.
> {the air cooled engine has head temps that hit 450 500 F at the spark
> plug} these are the temperatures that stretch your head bolts, seize
> your
> rings and break ring lands while they nicely score your cylinder walls.
> Engine re builders prefer customers who treat their engines with respect
> and run many faithful miles, opposed to those who run like crazy and
> get
> only 50% of the expected engine life.
> {I DON'T CARE WHAT YOUR GAUGE SAYS it a toy not an instrument }
> Absolutely right I can change senders or gauges and get very different
> readings with NEW matched gauges and senders.
> I've had my Westy up on Mt Ranier and at 80 degree outside temp I didn't
> have any problems running the entire grade at 45 mph in third gear
> (also
> the speed limit when it wasn't 25 mph).
> I've never been a professional trucker but I've found that in each
> area
> of the country there are famous grades that these truckers like to
> tell
> about. I've only been the fly on the wall listening to these stories
> but
> in every case their goal is to protect their equipment while assaulting
> these grades, not make speed.
> I've never met a grade that was more than a one hour event so I just
> slowed down and tried to enjoy the view.
> I'm driving a 20 year old vehicle and its remarkable that many of these
> Vanagons, Westies, Splits and Bays are still out there on the road.
> In
> all of the stops at Rest Areas, Picnic Areas, Gas Stations, State Parks,
> Visitors Centers I've never been criticized for my lower highway speeds
> ............ the general comments I get are "Isn't that neat!", "You
> mean
> that is 20 years old!", "I'd really like to have one of those!", "
> I had
> one of those back in the 70's".
> My view of Westfalia ownership is 'The trip is the reward, not the
> destination'.
> --------------------------------
> My driving guidelines that encompass every situation:
> Cylinder head temp under 420 degrees. (prefer 350-400)
> Oil temp never over 260 degrees. (prefer 204-220)
> Vehicle speed never over 85 MPH. (prefer 70-75 mph)
> Oil pressure never under 20 psi anytime (prefer 22 psi idle, 55 -60
> psi
> 3300 rpm)
> With a good engine and proper care anybody should be able to stay within
> the above limits.
>
> Stan Wilder
> 83 Air Cooled Westfalia
>
>
>
> On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 19:59:26 -0500 "G. Matthew Bulley"
> <gmbulley@BULLEY-HEWLETT.COM> writes:
> > There is one assertion that Bob makes that didn't sit right with
> me,
> > and
> > those of you not interested in theoretical discussions are welcome
> > to
> > depart before you doze off on this one...
> >
> > The primary assertion is that climbing a hill = increasing the load
> > on
> > the motor (which in turn) = increase in waste heat. My experience
> > doesn't bear this out at all. Follow me...
> >
> > Using our current Vanagon Westfalia (4speed manual on a 2.0 l stock
> > box)
> > as an example... on encountering a hill, if you reduce your speed
> > to
> > about 45-48 mph, and put it in 3rd, you have used the transmission
> > and a
> > reduction in speed to reduce the load on the motor. You've made a
> > mechanical exchange, sacrificing time, and distance to essentially
> > reduce the pressure required at the crown of the piston. The motor
> > spins
> > faster, under much lighter load to move you more slowly. That's the
> > idea
> > behind a transmission.
> >
> > Again, in my experience, by reducing my speed, and keeping the van
> > in
> > the "sweet spot" of 4,400-4800 rpm, even if that means downshifting
> > to
> > second, or driving only at 1/4 throttle for flatter stretches, I
> see
> > no
> > heat gain. None. The fan is blowing at its peak, the oil cooler is
> > working at its peak, and thanks to lower gears, and some patience,
> > my
> > motor is not straining or gaining new heat. I've actually seen the
> > oil
> > temp in my 914 (a different car) drop on long climbs.
> >
> > My experience biking bears this out as well. Most riders have a
> > "sweet
> > spot" between 60 and 72 pedal strokes per minute (30-36 rpm at the
> > crank). As long as you aren't racing (going for speed) you can
> > climb
> > mountains all day long, and never tire more than on the flats, if
> > you
> > change gears appropriately to keep pedaling in your sweet spot.
> >
> > Thoughts on this appreciated.
> >
> > From historic, walkable Mount Olive, NC,
> >
> > G. Matthew Bulley
> > Bulley-Hewlett
> > Corporate Communications
> > Business: www.bulley-hewlett.com
> > Alliance: www.ntara.com
> > Home: www.MountOliveNC.info
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM] On
> > Behalf
> > Of Robert Donalds
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 6:51 PM
> > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > Subject: Re: '80 Westfalia-- best way to drive over passes
> >
> > fellow vanagon types
> >
> > air-cooled engines collect heat over time lets say you are driving
> > down
> > the highway for an hour or two
> > in the heat of the summer and you then find that the road is in
> > fact
> > going to have a long incline. The engine that you have been driving
> > for
> > an hour or so is completely saturated with heat that means the oil
> > is at
> > around 225 f ( and that all the heat the oil will willingly absorb)
> > the
> > heads are at least at 300 350 f ( I don't believe most gauges ) and
> > now
> > you want to add more load to the engine. so the head temp will
> > continue
> > to climb as will the oil temp. The air cooled engine can and does
> > have
> > limits as to the load you can place upon it and those limits drop
> as
> > the
> > ambient air temp and road heat goes up because the air the fan pulls
> > in
> > is hotter can not absorb the heat off of the heads was fast as is
> > needed
> > when you push a fully warmed engine up a long grade in the heat of
> > the
> > day you might not blow the engine up but the engine will degrade
> > (make
> > less power) every time you do this So why would VW make an engine
> > that
> > cant take a licking and keep on ticking like it did last summer?.
> > they
> > did!!! the difference is the fuel. the new fuels are very fancy
> > they
> > make better power and are what I like to call designer fuels they
> > are
> > blended to run a water cooled engine with head temps that are much
> > lower
> > and consistent. the air cooled engine has head temps that hit 450
> > 500 F
> > at the spark plug on a climb up a pass I DON'T CARE WHAT YOUR GAUGE
> > SAYS
> > it a toy not an instrument and is nice to look at but that's
> > all.The
> > fuel can let you down in a big way under these conditions. when the
> > fuel
> > has what I will call abnormal combustion it burns slower and hotter
> > and
> > none of this is good for the air-cooled engine
> > The thing to do is to stop at the bottom of the pass for an hour
> > and
> > have lunch, make the van rock for a while, have a nap and let the
> > engine
> > cool down. The engine will never get anywhere as hot in the 10 or
> > 15
> > mile of climb as it would if you hit the hills fully warmed up in
> > the
> > heat of the day doing 60 mph
> > BECAUSE THE ENGINE ACCUMULATES HEAT OVER TIME and the amount of
> > time
> > depends on the air temp, load and we could also say fan intake air
> > temp,
> > air fuel ratio and some other stuff that I am afraid to go into
> > Im not kidding so pack a lunch
> > all right reserved
> > Bob Donalds
> > http://www.bostonengine.com
> >
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