Date:         Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:05:58 -0800
Reply-To:     Matthias Kuster <choreboy@CNMNETWORK.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Matthias Kuster <choreboy@CNMNETWORK.COM>
Subject:      This guy again (3000 mi trip yada yada)
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Hi Vanagonites,


Removed the water pump today and compared the block surface with a picture I
got off  the web: My block has seen some grinding. Towards the right (facing
engine) there was almost 1/8" that was missing on the rounded, snailhouse
type top/ right part, plus some more traces all around- some old water pump
pulley's hoof prints from way back before my time with this van. There was
still a small lip left. It looked as if it could've been machined. My bad.
Wasn't carefully checking a year ago. Looks like I've been running the van
like this for a year , and am having problems with overheating now. I
levelled the surface as well as possible with JB Weld, and will file it down
tomorrow after work.
I am still not sure if my head gaskets aren't pissing internally. I am
already having her in my back yard, so why not replace those darn head
gaskets. Like I said:
- No white smoke from the exhaust,
- and I drained the engine oil into a clear plastic bucket-no traces of
water to make out by my peepers.
- compression all around is 165-175psi
- no mayo on my oil filler cap

 Could it likely be that my problem was only a lack of pressure due to the
damaged mating surface at the water pump?. I haven't figured out how to
check my coolant pressure. Do I need the Snap-On special tool? Any El Cheapo
alternative.

Cheers


Matthias Kuster, L.A. CA--
1984 WBX 1.9 Wolfy Manual



And, for those who like to dig into the details:

If you got some time, here's my last post again. My system was always bled
properly. I replaced the rad now and there's not enough pressure to fill it
up now. Haven't quite sorted out how to test my coolant pressure yet:







I think this is gonna be longish, but let me elaborate some more...


Symptoms of my vanagon included intermittent heat at cruising speeds. The
heat would come and go at 2-3min intervals, from really hot to really cold.
I never use the heat here (or hardly) in SoCal, so it might have been going
like that for a while, but I only noticed it cruising in Oregon, B.C, and
Washington, at around 4000rpm, in 4th.
I guess I sure am lucky to have made it back here...:)

Also, my temperature gauge on the tach would suddenly start blinking,
rapidly climb, then go back down to normal. This would happen at any rpm,
any gear, intermittently on the trip, and occasionally thruout last year. I
found now that there was a crack in the temp sensor wire to the thermostat
housing, and insulated it. No more of that, but then again it's only idling
in my back yard now.

I had the clutch replaced last year at a very reputable porsche (Swiss
Motors in Culver City, CA) shop, and it would overheat when they were trying
to idle it at the shop. Dunno the details exactly, but I got it back and it
ran fine.

The month before it completely failed it would "breathe" vapor out the air
inlets, if I parked it on a hill, facing upwards, after a short (5min.)
climb. I can assure that my coolant system has always been bled properly, so
I couldn't figure that out.

My temp fan switch, radiator are functioning properly, all been replaced
fair;y recently. The rear heater core I took out, after it cracked on the
freeway with my mom on the bench seat-she used to like sitting there
because it would always get warm quick. She thought the end was near. All
the coolant vapor filling up the whole van scared her to bits and effected
an adjustment in her will, dou! She's riding shotgun now. Quite an event,
and she enjoys telling the story at her Bridge Club meetings. Not a good
rep for vanagons in most of Palm Springs, I'm afraid. Any way, I connected
the two hoses together-bypass, no leaks. This was 11/2 year ago.



> Good day Matthias,
> I have many suggestion and comment.
> First I will comment part of your post = " your post"
>
> First of all, did you bleed the cooling system properly?
> (if you need info on that subject I can send you some.)
>
> "Put in a new thermostat", is it a VW?
> You should use OEM!
Thermostat has been replaced twice in last 12 months. The one I took off
tested out fine in boiling water, on my stove. The one that's in now is a
BEHR, from BusDepot. Fresh as a daisy.

> "I have also replaced the water pump"
> how was the old one? Was the outer bearing loose? Another things to look
> for:  worn area of block where pump impeller rides (can be repaired with JB
> weld)
The water pump I took off did not have a loose pulley, also not when I
replaced one before  a year ago. I had trouble discerning whether or not
there has been grinding on the block, since I don't now what it is supposed
to look like proper. I can't source a picture of a ground off block, or one
of a perfect one. What would that look like?? It did seem like it had a thin
groove on the right side, but it looked smooth, as if machined. Maybe
there's a vanilla ice cream cone sticking on my forehead, but I had trouble
telling. How would I repair it with JB weld?? Help!

> "The engine is still overheating, and the radiator doesn't get hot."
> There is simple no coolant circulation, thermostat can block the
> circulation or the pump is not producing enough flow.

Maybe my block has seen some grinding, as not enough coolant flow is likely.
What I have to do is Boston Bob's test procedure. Can I fashion an El Cheapo
coolant pressure gauge or can I get it at Pep Boys or some other outfit??
>
> "Very low pressure, though it seemed."
> Pressure is one thing (describe below) and flow is another thing, the flow
> of any engine is very slow /low or small, it is just a liquid circulation.

There's no coolant reaching the feed pipe at the radiator. But there's
coolant downstream of the thermostat, in the engine compartment. Don't think
the 'stat is faulty, cause I drained my coolant completely, so the only way
to get past the thermostat is if it opens, alas, since I was feeding new
coolant thru the coolant tank only.

The head gasket leak could not possibly cause such, could it, and if it did,
I would surely have hydraulic lock on one piston, or a compression result
that's off. I am starting to feel more and more there is something with my
water pump and a ground surface on the block.
>
> "I drained the oil (engine cold), and the oil seemed "weird" (hm, I
> know-weird), I mean it looked very thin and almost creamy. Would that be
> coolant mixed with oil?"
> Not good, oil should be oil! If you think that there is coolant inside the
> oils system, the following and complete instruction should help.
> How is the oil level, is it higher than normal? How is coolant, is there
> oil inside?

Didn't see any sign that would firmly proof either. My oil level kept on
going down, if anything, since it probably burns some oil (1qt per 1500
miles non stop 4000rpm action), no oil leaks I can make out.
>
> "Does, when the head gaskets fail, internally, coolant get pumped into the
> engine, and there's not enough pressure to get it up to the radiator?"
> 1)-There is no "get it up to the radiator", it's already full of coolant,
> the pump is just doing a movement of coolant control by the thermostat.
As I said, I drained the system completely, and put in a new rad. There's
simply not enough pressure to get it up there. The radiator is still dry.
> 2)-Yes but this is not usual, and a failure of the inner ring (gasket) is
> normally a slow process accompanied by a white smoke at the exhaust.
> If you stop the normal cooling flow because you have a broken inner gasket
> you should also have a rising oil level and for sure a big white smoke in
> the back of the van?
> Also, if your sucking coolant into the combustion chambers you have a risk
> of pistons rings seizure (But this is a long process = pistons rings
> seizure)

I got none of that, no white smoke, no rising oil level, and also no "mayo"
on the oil fill cap. Dunno if the mayo applies to WBX, I'd think though.
>
> "The compression test I did checked out at 165-175 psi throughout."
> Mmmm., not sure about that, but the only possibility is that there is an
> abnormal amount of """substance""" in the compression chamber. Probably
> coolant.
Bentley says 145-189 psi, with 116 psi as a minimum for both 1.9l and 2.1l.
Hanes on the other hand only states a spec value of 10-13 bar, thus
approx.145-185 psi.
> Did you double check the "head bolt" torque? I know that the torque was
> increase on the 1.9 by VW.
Nope, I guess that's coming.
>
> "I will go with rebuilding the WBX 1.9 engine. I saw an ad that said
> "$975.00, installed" for a 1.9s. This seems awfully little.
> Most VW engine rebuild by other company suck!!!!, be careful! $975 doesn't
> look right
I second that, I am looking at Fastgermanauto, at $1990.00.
> I think that maybe you just need new head gasket and not a complete engine.
> If you can remove the engine yourself, you CAN do the rest of the job
> to!!!!! With some little help from a VW dealer to reseal the new heads
> gasket. Changing the head gasket is a bit tricky but not the end of the
> world at all, the only thing is to make sure that the inner gasket stays is
> well align when putting the heads back.
Engine removal seems very easy, compared to other cars I have done it with
(VWI-4 and Alfa 3.0V6). What scares me more is tappets, pushrods, etc.
>
> The following is the procedure to check the cooling system pressure, this
> is a post I did not so long ago on http://www.westfalia.org.
>
> The problem "could be" that pressure is building up in the cooling system.
> This is due to the head gasket (the 2 round one found each side) at the top
> of the cylinder leaking compression. Normally this symptom happens when the
> engine is cold but if you have a major leak at the inner head gasket this
> will happen at any temperature. When I did my heads I had more than 15lb of
> pressure in the cooling system. So that means that my inner head and outer
> head gasket had failure (I had a leak on the right side). The following are
> a summarization of 2 tests I found a year ago on Boston Bob engine web
> site, they are reliable test. Remember that the coolant flow is low even at
> high RPM. The more the engine rise in temperature, more the pressure is
> high.
>
> TEST #1: Pressure Tests for the Cooling System
> The first test of the cooling system is done when the engine is cold.  A
> cooling system pressure tester can be installed in place of the radiator
> cap. Pressure in the cooling system and hot coolant are not something to be
> treated lightly.  Use caution, and never remove the radiator cap from an
> engine that has been run even for even a short time. After installing the
> gauge, pump it up to 10 pounds. Look around for leaks if the gauge shows
> any pressure loss. Common trouble spots include heads, hoses, water pump
> and rear heater core. If you smell something sweet when you turn the heater
> fans on, it may be a coolant leak at one of the heater cores, or simply the
> O-ring at the rear heater valve leaking. Because there is often more then
> one leak in the system, it is necessary to continue pressure testing until
> the system holds pressure.
>
> TEST #2
> Start the engine cold with no pressure indicated on the gauge.  The
> pressure in the cooling system builds to aprox 7 lbs at normal running
> temps looking around for leaks. But if the pressure builds quickly to
> around 15 lbs the pressure is coming from one of the cylinders through the
> inner head gasket. This can also show up as a coolant pressure loss in the
> first test. In extreme cases the cylinder can fill with coolant, and will
> not turn over. This is know as hydraulic lock, and if you suspect this pull
> the spark plugs and tries to turn the engine again. Pulling the plugs from
> the engine allows water to escape from the spark plug holes.
>
> This is simply a suggestion but the first test is easy to do and will tell
> you right away where is your leak or leaks.
> I hope I have been of some help, sorry for my poor English but I try my
> best.
> Ben, Montreal, Canada.
>
I think my problem actually might be a ground block at the water pump mount.
How can I tell, what is it supposed to look like??


Thanks everyone...Cheers!
Matthias Kuster, L.A. CA--
1984 WBX 1.9 Wolfy Manual

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