Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 16:37:17 -0500
Reply-To: Chris Mills <scmills@TNTECH.EDU>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Chris Mills <scmills@TNTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bus for sale....(which year is best)
In-Reply-To: <vanagon%2002051316222140@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
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Just depends what you want to do with it and what your expectations are.
You'd be best to test drive busses from each "era". I like the look of the
splitty but know after driving one I'd not be happy with anything older
than the 70's - an even that requires alot of updating to make me happy.
>1- From 71 to 79 the main body is about the same size and weight(not the
>pop top, I know)
Yes - more or less.
>2- The camper interior layout is better after 74 (fridge and all)
>After 75, the interior layout is about the same as the 80 series.
That is the general consensus.
>3- The 2.0L Air cooled must be more powerful than the 1.8, 1.7, 1.6 (same
>body!),
Torque went up too a little.
>I know that when the 2.0L came out is was to compensate the weight
>addition of the fridge, stove and bigger pop-top etc.
No - the 2.0 went into the passenger vans too - just seats in those busses.
People's expectations were changing and 60 HP just wasn't enough for a
3,500 lb vehicle. Be sure it is enough for you too.
>But if the body was the same than the previous years, the overall power
>must be better than
>70/75!
The engine makes a little difference but mostly you'll notice it at higher
speeds and on the hills - say 55 mph instead of 60 mph. This isn't the
difference between a Ferrari and a Yugo. They are all the slowest vehicles
on the road. Big trucks - small cars - SUV's - they are all faster. A few
high end vans with fancy engines go faster - but these are NOT the ones you
commonly see in the VW magazines. Those are generally limited use show
vehicles that are setup for real use, just puttering around.
>All those question because I am looking for one, my girl is crazy about the
>older shape (-79).
The older busses have (relative to the later busses) poor brakes, poor
suspensions, and poor steering systems. They were tough but they rode
worse. Refinement was to be had in each newer version.
With age comes a long list of old car ailments - are you prepared? They can
be overcome if repaired COMPLETELY but things like rust can come back again
and again if you don't kill it completely the first time. Rust can ruined
an old vehicle and leave you with nothing. A total loss. Stay away from
rusty vehicles.
Are you able to do all this work yourself or are you rich? Shop rates can
be upwards to $50 an hour. Personally it would take me weeks any my payrate
to pay for a few days in a shop...
>What I personally want is those 65/69 years with the VW
>"V" shape and big round light in the front (with the square pop top).
Not a light. It is simply a VW emblem. You are looking for a splitty with a
Westfalia camper conversion.
>But they tell me that they are quite rare,
They are not rare - you just aren't looking in the right places. They can
range from $500 to $15,000 - what do you want to spend? Better buy one that
is a good balance between your budget and the condition of the vehicle. The
Type2 list recently had a big discussion on price versus condition.
Check the archives at www.type2.com
Also check out www.vintagebus.com
Don't believe an old car is restored because the owner says it is.
"Restored" is a very loose term.
>also the original engine was a
>beetle 1300cc engine and the van was very underpowered, the solution was to
>put a 1600cc (easily fitted) into those.
And 60 HP still isn't much in a 3000 lb. van on the highway with 90 mph
6000 SUVs. Think twice before you buy one of these. 60 HP gets you about 55
mph on flat ground. Some can go a bit faster and sometimes they do it by
sacrificing longevity. An new engine annually is no fun and gets $$$.
And because you are a complete newby - stay away from the shiny VW parts in
the VW magazines. Those magazines are there to sell advertising and they do
it by running articles on their suppliers newest product that may or may
not actually accomplish the task they promise well. Many of those products
work much worse than 35 year old VW factory parts. Some are better. Only
experience will teach you the difference. Some of these suppliers prey on
folks with some money and no real knowledge about their vehicle. That was
me about 12 years ago. Luckily I was broke long enough that I had a chance
to learn the difference between the junk and the good stuff before I had
any money to spend. I kept it stock, acknowledged the vehicle's
limitations, and made sure it was a perfect as I could afford - did
maintenance on EVERYTHING. Learned to make a proper repair that stayed
repaired. And this was with nothing but Muir and Bentley and the magazines
which probably actually slowed my education. Read some Porsche books and
magazines - those are often folks with the money and time to pursue very
elaborate solutions to their old car problems. However - those printed
materials also cater to a much older and wiser group of folks than our VW
mags and they will get called on the carpet by the readers when they
publish flawed or misleading materials. Too much money at stake for their
readers.
Join the Type2 list at www.type2.com and the vintage bus list at
www.vintagebus.com and start reading. In fact I would read all of the
archives and operate as a lurker for a while. Start reading
www.shoptalkforums.com
In the meantime - do some camping in a cheap tent. If you have a pickup you
can buy a truck tent that is really nice for just a couple hundred $$$.
Buying and driving an old VW is not like driving a Toyota. They require
ALOT more attention very often (as often as every 1500 miles!) and you will
find yourself stranded or broke if you do not first learn some basic
mechanical skills.
>Second choice would be a 75 over because of the interior layout and the
>improve power curve of the 2.0L, if the 80-83 run the 2.0L the power must
>be good in a 75-79!!!
Yep - 67 whole horsepower. That gets you 60-65 mph on the flat ground. You
also get a vehicle that many if not most mechanics will not touch because
it has an engine different from the Beetle and a fuel injection system
unlike anything they've seen for 20 years or more. Again you are best to
learn to be your own mechanic. Keep it stock if you want anybody else to
work on it and don't buy a carburetor just because the mechanic tells you
that the fuel injection is junk. This mechanic's solution is quite common
and the fuel injection system is best for these buses. They are very robust
systems and easy to fix with some studying. One trip to a mechanic will buy
alot of tools and books. The aftermarket carb systems are very finicky in
cold or wet temps unless carefully designed - and the catalog kits are not
well designed. They most often lack a way to preheat the intake air and can
freeze up.
>I also don't like the 71/73 interior layouts; I don't like the big sink in
>the entrance (side door) and the small pop top that open the other way. I
>have seen the interior of this pop-top and if I am right there is only
>places for one child (the one I have seen is like a hammock single bed on
>the left side) I like a full bed up there.
So go with a Vanagon or late baywindow.
>Remember that I don't use my westy for showing!! I like to do very long trip
>and I like to sleep by myself some time (when camping with my girl!! or
>other friend).
>
>I am a bit confuse about the 69/73 years as to who was doing the
>conversion, was there official Westfalia camper, first year of the full
>pop-top, orientation of the pop-top.
There are about 8-9 different companies that did camper conversions on VW
vans. You'll have to do some reading to learn the difference. Start surfing
and reading because most of the dealer brochures from 30 years ago are on
the web.
>Like you probably all know, I am from Montreal, So if any of you guys are
>aware of some good deal around the northern / eastern USA / Canada, let me
>know. (I hate e-bay!)
Watch out for rust.
Have fun.
Make your choices v-e-r-y carefully.
Chris M. <Busbodger - "TEAM SLOWPOKE">
Cookeville, Tennessee
ICQ# 5944649
scm9985@tntech.edu
'78 VW Westfalia (67 HP -> that is...67 Hamster Power)
'65 Beetle - Type IV powered
'99 CR-V AWD station wagon
'81 CB900 Custom moto-chickle
2.5 Corvair engines for my Trans-vair Conversion
