Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 02:57:18 -0700
Reply-To: John Clemens <jbclem@EARTHLINK.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: John Clemens <jbclem@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: IS THE LIST GETTING SMALLER?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I want to echo what David has said here. I've seen this happen on other
lists, where the people who contribute the most, the very experienced and
the professional members, get so frustrated with the rudeness and the
pettiness that they just stop showing up. I've seen well known
professionals chased away by a few loud mouth unrelenting members who seem
to delight in the power to be rude without having to pay a price for it.
And that's really what it comes down to, in the invisible world of the
internet there is no face to face, and you aren't dealing with real
neighbors...the ones who live next door and who will stop talking to you, or
inviting you over, or keeping an eye on your house when you're on a
trip...if you keep on insulting them. In this pretend global village when
your immaturity makes you a pariah it only takes a couple of keystrokes and
you have moved to the next village. It's the perfect world for the
frustrated, the bitter, and the socially inept. I've often wanted to
arrange meetings between the mouths and their targets, just to see how far
this verbal bravado would carry. In person, of course, you get to see the
look of disdain on the other persons' face, or the way they look at their
friends and smile, or roll their eyes, and in person there is the very real
chance you might see a fist moving towards your sarcastic mouth.
It's not only rude, uncivil, and childish to communicate on the internet
with no attempt at self control, it's a form of cowardice. Because the
mouth pays such a small price, he or she will never understand the price
others pay as they waste their own time trying to ignore, or even understand
these useless words.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Beierl" <dbeierl@ATTGLOBAL.NET>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: IS THE LIST GETTING SMALLER?
> At 01:07 PM 5/28/2002, developtrust wrote:
> >What a bogus posting. I say good riddance to anyone who would try to
squelch
> >any kind of participation. Tom does a great job in my opinion.
> >
> >What an immature thing to attempt to blame the list member's content for
a
> >reason for leaving. Another attempt at censorship.
> >
> >Tell the people you met who gave that bogus, childish and petty reason
for
> >leaving to stay away if they are stupid enough to deny themselves the
rich
> >content of this list.
>
> William, what you seem to be missing is that the people who leave are the
> ones with expertise and experience, who have given many hours of effort to
> assist others. It is hardly censorship to remove oneself from an
> environment that has become unpleasant, and many people find blatant
> rudeness, hair-trigger squabbling, and endless pushing of
> politicosexualsociological philosophies quite unpleasant. I count myself
> among them. There is another group who may leave -- that is new members
> who have entered in the midst of a bout of incivility and have not had a
> chance yet to discover the value of the list. I seem to remember a
certain
> feller from California who a) left in a huff after being subscribed for
> roughly one day, and b) has proceeded since then to irritate a
considerable
> fraction of the list membership in various ways including pushing various
> personal and political agendas unrelated to Vanagons. He has in general
> been treated with considerable forbearance, and I must say that IMHO he's
> gotten a lot easier to live with in the last couple months as he absorbs
> some of the spirit of the list -- but he'd have done much better to be a
> lot quieter in the beginning. Please forgive my not mincing words in this
> situation.
>
>
> >Furthermore, to attempt to lay a guilt trip is outright latent (and
blatant)
> >manipulation. How childish. Really!!
>
> I beg to differ. People have, I suppose, every right to be rude, although
> it certainly says a lot about them personally -- OTOH other people have an
> equal right to expect an atmosphere of civility and to vote with their
> feet when it is missing. If the people who leave are ?coincidentally?
> those who have the greatest experience and expertise, then I submit that
> the list is the poorer for it.
>
> On that basis I suggest that it pays to keep the old-timers happy, and
that
> in the absence of self-control amongst list members it might indeed be
> worthwhile to have a little more active participation by some form of
> moderator (not necessarily the list-owner) who has/have the power to say
> "This thread is ended, take it private" and make it stick.
>
> >I hope the list IS getting smaller. I also hope those that want to leave
> >just do it and don't waste list band width telling us you are going to or
> >why you did it.
>
> Does this include everyone? If Tom Carrington decides to leave the list
> would you want to know why? And would you be prepared to take over the
> ownership of the list, house the machinery, provide the Internet
connection
> for it and so on as he does? You already know if you've read his postings
> that he's disappointed in the lack of self-control evidenced by various
> recent flareups. If Dennis Haynes or Harold Nancy or Mark Drillock or Bob
> Donalds or Brent Christensen or Ken Wilford or Ron Salmon or Frank
> Condelli or Joel Walker (to name just a few) leave would you like to know
> why? I'll even venture an opinion that I myself give more to the list
than
> I take from it -- if I get to the end of my tolerance would you care to
> know what made this place not worth the effort to me?
>
> regds,
> david
>
>
> --
> David Beierl - Providence, RI
> http://pws.prserv.net/synergy/Vanagon/
> '84 Westy "Dutiful Passage"
> '85 GL "Poor Relation"
>
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