Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 08:01:11 -0700
Reply-To: Sean Garrett <SEAN.GARRETT@ASU.EDU>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Sean Garrett <SEAN.GARRETT@ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: IS THE LIST GETTING SMALLER? with proposal!
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Me too Karl/Gary. I can burn CDs, help with formats/ compression/ utilities
to make it work for as many PC platforms that there might be out there.
Sean Garrett
1981 Westy (his)
1995 Eurovan Camper (hers)
sean.garrett@asu.edu
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Karl Wolz [mailto:wolzphoto@WORLDNET.ATT.NET]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 3:49 PM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Re: IS THE LIST GETTING SMALLER? with proposal!
>
>
> Frank; I'd like you to meet Gary Hradek, who is in the
> process of putting
> together a CD including just such information. His is a
> noble venture, and
> to do it properly, he could certainly use a hand.
>
> From my experience with the list stickers, I am fairly
> certain that he has
> no concept of what he's getting into; his is a wonderful
> idea, and I don't
> want to see him getting stoned to death, ala Ken Wyatt with
> the stickers.
>
> You have my solemn pledge that I will do what I can to help with this
> project, if indeed my help is wanted.
>
> Karl Wolz
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Frank Grunthaner" <FrankGRUN@AOL.COM>
> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 1:43 PM
> Subject: Re: IS THE LIST GETTING SMALLER? with proposal!
>
>
> > In a message dated 5/28/02 11:20:17 AM,
> dbeierl@ATTGLOBAL.NET writes:
> >
> > << William, what you seem to be missing is that the people
> who leave are
> the
> > ones with expertise and experience, who have given many
> hours of effort to
> > assist others. It is hardly censorship to remove oneself from an
> > environment that has become unpleasant, and many people find blatant
> > rudeness, hair-trigger squabbling, and endless pushing of
> > politicosexualsociological philosophies quite unpleasant.
> I count myself
> > among them. There is another group who may leave -- that
> is new members
> > who have entered in the midst of a bout of incivility and
> have not had a
> > chance yet to discover the value of the list. I seem to remember a
> certain
> > feller from California who a) left in a huff after being
> subscribed for
> > roughly one day, and b) has proceeded since then to irritate a
> considerable
> > fraction of the list membership in various ways including
> pushing various
> > personal and political agendas unrelated to Vanagons. He
> has in general
> > been treated with considerable forbearance, and I must say
> that IMHO he's
> > gotten a lot easier to live with in the last couple months
> as he absorbs
> > some of the spirit of the list -- but he'd have done much
> better to be a
> > lot quieter in the beginning. Please forgive my not
> mincing words in this
> > situation.
> >
> >
> > >Furthermore, to attempt to lay a guilt trip is outright latent (and
> blatant)
> > >manipulation. How childish. Really!!
> >
> > I beg to differ. People have, I suppose, every right to be
> rude, although
> > it certainly says a lot about them personally -- OTOH other
> people have an
> > equal right to expect an atmosphere of civility and to
> vote with their
> > feet when it is missing. If the people who leave are
> ?coincidentally?
> > those who have the greatest experience and expertise, then
> I submit that
> > the list is the poorer for it.
> >
> > On that basis I suggest that it pays to keep the old-timers
> happy, and
> that
> > in the absence of self-control amongst list members it
> might indeed be
> > worthwhile to have a little more active participation by
> some form of
> > moderator (not necessarily the list-owner) who has/have the
> power to say
> > "This thread is ended, take it private" and make it stick.
> >
> > >I hope the list IS getting smaller. I also hope those that
> want to leave
> > >just do it and don't waste list band width telling us you
> are going to or
> > >why you did it.
> >
> > Does this include everyone? If Tom Carrington decides to
> leave the list
> > would you want to know why? And would you be prepared to
> take over the
> > ownership of the list, house the machinery, provide the Internet
> connection
> > for it and so on as he does? You already know if you've
> read his postings
> > that he's disappointed in the lack of self-control
> evidenced by various
> > recent flareups. If Dennis Haynes or Harold Nancy or Mark
> Drillock or Bob
> > Donalds or Brent Christensen or Ken Wilford or Ron Salmon or Frank
> > Condelli or Joel Walker (to name just a few) leave would
> you like to know
> > why? I'll even venture an opinion that I myself give more
> to the list
> than
> > I take from it -- if I get to the end of my tolerance would
> you care to
> > know what made this place not worth the effort to me?
> >
> > regds,
> > david
> > >>
> >
> > David,
> >
> > Well said. In my view, having been involved since nearly
> the inception of
> the
> > list, I do feel that the technical, recreational and
> societal content of
> the
> > list has declined markedly in the last few years. This is certainly
> > abandonment by experienced and well informed former members.
> >
> > Part of this is due to the generation of focused sub-lists
> and part is due
> to
> > the extended response to flames, off topic forays and
> politically correct
> > demands. Often, speaking for myself only, I delete whole days of
> > transmissions in a unit time.
> >
> > One of the key separations between democracy and anarchy is personal
> > discipline. Participate, but offer postings with a view to
> contributing,
> or
> > probing for information after searching the archives and
> FAQs. Tom's role
> as
> > moderator should not have to be punitive. Police yourself
> least we drive
> > another moderator into the drink. Share content, as opposed
> to innuendo
> and
> > structured belief system pontification.
> >
> > (The proposition) BTW, with the increasing number of
> newbies, and the size
> of
> > the archives, the FAQs for the group should be enhanced. Such an
> undertaking
> > is beyond the time resources of probably all list members. However,
> > individual specific topics, taken on by a volunteer newbie might be
> feasible.
> > Said newbie would take on as a project, scanning the
> archives on, for
> > example, the topic of cooling system bleeding. After
> pulling the material,
> > said newbie could digest the material and piece together a
> summary of the
> key
> > features with references to the archives for more detail.
> The group could
> > comment at length, after which said document owner could
> develop his final
> > piece on the matter and forward it to Vanagon.com for
> incorporation as a
> FAQ
> > on the matter. The result could be newbie rapidly converted
> to expert on
> his
> > topic and a wealth of info for all.
> >
> > My ill-considered thoughts,
> >
> > Frank Grunthaner
> >
>
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