Date:         Wed, 29 May 2002 00:11:20 -0400
Reply-To:     Bob O Shaughnessy <vanagon@COLUMBUS.RR.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Bob O Shaughnessy <vanagon@COLUMBUS.RR.COM>
Subject:      My 2 cents on the condition of the list
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

    I've been a member of the list since sometime in 1996 and have benefited
from it and the collective wisdom and knowledge of its participants far more
than I could have ever imagined.  When I ran into Vanagon (and bus) owners
at shows I could not stop praising the virtues of the list and I held it up
as the best example of the power of collective knowledge and shared
obsession on the internet.

    The wonderful mix of those of us holding together daily drivers with
duct tape and JB Weld and the hot-rodders and others who seemed to have
limitless budgets and imaginations was an experience like no other.

    When my Jetta became my daily driver, I only read the list occasionally.
In the last few months though, as I got ready to buy my Westy I started
reading more and more.  Wow, what a difference.

    Rather than good tech discussion, patience with those that have tire and
silver socket questions, and eclectic off topic discussions between
well-mannered people, we've got sniping, personal flame wars and incoherent,
non-sequitur responses.

    There was a day on this list when the discussion was kept polite.  If
one baited another listee, both were warned quickly by both moderators and
those with cooler heads, and people LISTENED to that advice.  The gun
discussions, and whatever else got everyone in a chest thumping mode would
come, and quickly go.

    I stopped home for lunch today and checked the list.  I read Chris'
message and hoped that this would prompt some serious discussion and lots of
change.  The first few responses to Chris' post sadly weren't surprising.
Phrases like "...opinions are like ass-h***s---everybody's got one" "Another
hoax----more scare tatics(sic)---from some wana-be's(sic)" "...who gave that
bogus, childish and petty reason for leaving to stay away if they are stupid
enough to deny themselves..."  "I say good riddance to anyone who would try
to squelch any kind of participation."to attempt to lay a guilt trip is
outright latent (and blatant) manipulation. How childish."  couldn't have
done a better job illustrating Chris's point that the level of discussion on
this list has devolved and driven good people away thanks to a few notable
trolls and those who feel the need to respond to them.

    People need to realize that in order to contribute to a community like
this, you have to treat it exactly like you would treat any other community.
I shudder to think that the people who send messages to the list with
content similar to the ones I've quoted might actually speak to their
neighbors, family and co-workers that way.  Common sense and good manners
aren't something you ignore when you are in front of a keyboard.

    Tom, I realize that you've got lots of other irons in the fire, and I
commend you for keeping this list alive, but we need more moderation, and
more active discouragement of those who have turned the list into their own
private flame forums.  I suggest that you try to find a couple of cool heads
to co-moderate and try to keep the signal-to-noise ratio down.  I'm hesitant
to volunteer, as I've got plenty of other things to do but I'll help out any
way I can.

    Those of you who lurk, go to nomail, or spend most of your time deleting
messages and building killfiles, this is your list too.  Take your concerns
directly to Tom.  P-mail the people whose messages you delete because
they're off topic or offensive with a polite request to stop.  Encourage
those who take the troll bait to take a deep breath.  The fact that you
aren't a moderator or listowner just means that you can't actually kick
someone off the list.  But you are a member of a community.  People that
harm the community need to hear about it, be embarrassed and stop.  But more
than anything else *please* don't go.  This list is a wonderful forum, a
great asset and a great place to enjoy yourself.


_________________________________________________________

Bob O'Shaughnessy,         Columbus, OH
vanagon@columbus.rr.com
99 A3 Jetta TDI
85GL with basic Westy interior
82 Diesel Westy (with blown engine)
74 Bus (Dad's)
72 Wife, 95 Cat, 96 Cat, 98 Kid, 00 Kid, 01 Dog
25 House