Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 11:55:54 -0700
Reply-To: mark drillock <drillock@EARTHLINK.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: mark drillock <drillock@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: No Start after alternator failure and
replacement..TESTINGRELAYS
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Tom, one relay turns the ECU on whenever the key is on and the other
relay runs the fuel pump when the ECU tells it too. I don't any longer
have a 1.9 model to look at here. According to the Bentley one relay has
1 white wire at pin 87 and the other has 2 white wires at 87. The one
with 2 whites to 87 is the fuel pump relay. Which one is not turning on?
The ECU is supposed to run the fuel pump relay for a few seconds when
the key is first turned on. Then if the hall sender is working and
sending pulses from the engine cranking the ECU turns it on again and
leaves it on as long as the engine is turning. Measure the voltage on
pin 87 while someone turns the key on. It should go to 12 volts for a
few seconds and then go back to 0 volts. If they try to start it and the
engine cranks it should go back to 12 while the engine is turning.
Let me know what you see.
The fuel pump relay also provides the 12 volts to the 4 fuel injectors
so even hot wiring the fuel pump won't let the engine start if the relay
is not operating.
Be very careful when working in this area as some of these wires connect
straight to the battery with no fuse to blow if you accidentally short
something. The wires can melt quickly.
Mark
"Thomas D. Hanlon" wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> We've performed the tests you advised.
>
> Results:
>
> Left relay, socket pin 30 read 12.89 with the key off.
> Right relay, socket pin 30 read 12.93, with the key off.
>
> Left relay, socket pin 87 read 12.07 with the key on.
> Right relay, socket pin 87 read 00.00 with the key on.
>
> We repeated the test on the right relay only, using two relays, in succession,
> taken from the donor van.
>
> Results of these tests:
>
> Substitute Relay number 1.
> Right relay, socket pin 30 read 12.75, with the key off.
> Right relay, socket pin 87 read 00.00 with the key on.
>
> Substitute Relay number 2.
> Right relay, socket pin 30 read 12.67, with the key off.
> Right relay, socket pin 87 read 00.00 with the key on.
>
> We measured the same reading of "00.00" at pin 87 on three relays. What does
> this mean?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Regards,
>
> Tom Hanlon
> Palm Springs, CA
> 84 Westfalia
>
> mark drillock wrote:
>
> > Tom, if you were closer I'd come and have a look. I think you had a
> > wiring failure that caused other things to die. Let's track down the
> > wiring problem first and that may lead us to what else has gone bad.
> >
> > In the black box on the left side of the engine compartment are 2
> > relays. With the key OFF they should both have 12 volts on socket pin 30
> > ( red wire).
> >
> > Check and let me know.
> >
> > If they both do have 12 volts, turn the key ON and check pin 87 of each.
> > Let me know what they have.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > "Thomas D. Hanlon" wrote:
> > >
> > > Listees,
> > >
> > > Westy is in "no start" condition during the first 130 miles of 6,000
> > > mile journey. I'm safe at home, frustrated.
> > >
> > > After a shutdown of van, tow truck operator suggested that the
> > > alternator failed at high speed. Dash lights behaved erratically for
> > > about 10/15 miles at 60 MPH. "Battery" light did not come on, nor was
> > > there any other indication problem until dash lights, fuel gauge and
> > > temp gauge began to recede to low levels. Westy 1.9 engine stopped.
> > > Battery was drained.
> > >
> > > Alternator removed and tested and produced 2 volts of about a 12-volt
> > > standard. The failure was "machine" diagnosed as "diode."
> > >
> > > Replacement alternator installed and recently-purchased "new" battery
> > > charged and tested. The starter will turn, strongly, but the van will
> > > not start.
> > >
> > > DIGITOOL READINGS
> > >
> > > Digitool LEDs, "Inj," "T-S," "Fuel," and "Coil," light up.
> > > Digitool LED "Start" remains unlighted.
> > >
> > > Digitool LCDs, "Temp 1," "Temp 2," "Power," "AFM" and "Oxy Sensor" are
> > > blank/unlighted..
> > >
> > > In three "tries" there was a "slight" sound of what appeared to be an
> > > attempt to start, just barely, minimally, unsuccessfully..
> > >
> > > There is a faint smell of fuel. Can an fuel injected engine "flood?"
> > >
> > > Is there some electrical component which could have been damaged by the
> > > failure of the alternator and the subsequent draining of the battery? At
> > > the time of the incident, I tried three of four times to start the
> > > engine, and once I had a "power pack" (portable battery) start which
> > > allowed me to go another 10 miles, or so, until the shutdown.
> > >
> > > Please offer opinions on solution/resolution of this problem.
> > >
> > > What I have had reemphasized to me in this incident:
> > > It is essential to have a cell phone in the Southern California/Arizona
> > > Desert.
> > > I find it wise to have paid the "extra" for the AAA 'Plus" with a
> > > hundred-mile tow coverage
> > > I find myself to be even "wiser" to be insured 15 years by GEICO
> > > Insurance with ERS "Emergency Road Service." The coverage as a
> > > supplement to AAA. Towed home about 150 miles. Towing charge of $337.00
> > > covered 100 miles by AAA and 50 miles by GEICO.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Tom Hanlon
> > > Palm Springs, CA
> > > 84 Westfalia
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