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Date:         Mon, 8 Jul 2002 21:03:32 +0100
Reply-To:     Clive Smith <clive.harman-smith@NTLWORLD.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Clive Smith <clive.harman-smith@NTLWORLD.COM>
Subject:      Re: High elevation adjustments?
Comments: To: Ed Sato <edsato@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Yes, well it did cross my mind, but water injection can help when a) high air intake temperatures are high causing low density (its mainly altitude here but who knows what the sir intake temp is) and b) when the internals are limited by peak temperatures (not the case)

Probably doesn't apply too much to high altitudes here as air temps are pesumably ISA, which at this alt are quite low. (typically drops about 2 deg C /1000 - the ALR adiabatic lapse rate.

I think its important to keep engine bay temps down, but water injection might be as much or more trouble to get right than other methods - anyone got DIRECT experience with this on an auto engine.

My 2.1 is a DJ and 98 octane definitely peps it up c.f. 95, but I derek Drew assures me there are non imported into the States (10.5:1 CR) and Digijet system.

Clive

----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Sato" <edsato@juno.com> To: <clive.harman-smith@NTLWORLD.COM> Cc: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 9:15 PM Subject: Re: High elevation adjustments?

> Anyone ever try water injection to get the extra boost to climb hills? I > wonder why it is not used as it was in the past? I think it would work > well on high altitude climbs. Just an idea. Aloha, Ed > > > On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 17:47:35 +0100 Clive Smith > <clive.harman-smith@NTLWORLD.COM> writes: > > Definitely turbo, but not a big one, unless you want to intercool, > > rather > > than just restore sea level performance. Also, manual gearbox - > > definitely - > > I think I'd shoot myself before buying another auto of that vintage, > > even in > > the UK - as a race we tend to hate them. At least you could > > entertain > > yourself by changing up and down now and again. > > Ensure air-cleaner is spotless and can not pickup 'any' warm air > > from engine > > bay. Check the plug colour, if it looks a bit dark or very light > > (unlikely) > > after a plug chop (when you need to take a pee whilst climbing for > > half and > > hour) then at least you know the altitude's not fully corrected for > > by the > > injection. If its running at all weak, you will be losing power and > > remember > > that weak mixtures take longer to burn, though the answer is not to > > necessarily advance the ignition - correct the mixture if you can. > > > > Reduce weight, the unnecessary crap I've seen onboard some vehicles, > > defies > > belief. Turn off all unnecessary ancillaries. > > Up the tyre pressures to the max for safety and handling. Try to > > reduce the > > engine-bay temperatures by every means, there's an article on > > Vanagon site > > about soundproofing, but this also talks about insulating the > > exhaust system > > with something called F1 tape (I think) - keeping the heat 'inside' > > the > > exhaust system achieves 2 things, extracts exhaust gases better > > (improves > > cylinder scavenging) - more power, lower cyl. temps and reduces > > heat > > transfer to the engine bay. I imagine the heat from the auto might > > be upping > > the engine-bay temps too. Do all this and you might go from 30-35mph > > (with a > > manual gearbox) - but thats what? 18% > > > > At 10,00 ft air pressure is 78.8% and density (what matters) 73.8% > > of that > > at Sea level, so you've lost 25% at least by then, remembering that > > what > > matters is not absolute power, but EXCESS power, power available to > > do work > > above and beyond just driving the ancillaries, gearbox, torque > > convertor, > > alternator, etc etc. Any increase you can make will go directly to > > to > > improving hill-climbing - in short, gaining 2 BHP at the engine will > > be > > equivalent to gaining say, 2.5 or more at the wheels as these losses > > are > > nominally constant. If you ever climb to an altitude where the > > vehicle won't > > climb at all anymore - in that gear - then you can do a rough sum of > > the > > horsepower consumed by the ancillaries and transmission (horrendous) > > - > > > > density at 5,000' = 86.15% of sl > > density at 10,000' = 73.8% of sl > > density at 15,000' = 62.9% of sl > > density at 20,000' = 53.3% of sl > > > > Power will be approx. proportional to density (the number of > > molecules of > > oxygen) provided cylinder filling holds up. > > Nitrous Oxide anyone? Fuel additives, methanol? > > > > Clive Smith > > '88 Syncro Transporter 2.1 > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "mike" <mwmiller@CWNET.COM> > > To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> > > Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 4:55 PM > > Subject: Re: High elevation adjustments? > > > > > > > Turbo. Big one. > > > > > > > From: Andrew Fox <afox@CNR.COLOSTATE.EDU> > > > > Reply-To: Andrew Fox <afox@CNR.COLOSTATE.EDU> > > > > Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 09:34:11 -0600 > > > > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > > > > Subject: High elevation adjustments? > > > > > > > > I routinely drive my van at elevations ranging from 5,000-14,000 > > feet > > here > > > > in Colorado. Above about 8,000 feet i experience loss of power > > such > > that > > > > I am only able to maintain about 30 mph while keeping the engine > > floored > > > > in second gear. I know its a crime but i routinely drive my van > > with my > > > > foot to the floor for a half hour or longer while going uphill > > in second > > > > gear (auto tranny). So my question is are there any adjustments > > I can > > > > make to have a better high elevation driving experience? Any > > Colorado > > > > listees out there that can tell me if they get better or worse > > performance > > > > on some of Colorado's steep/high highways (ie I-70)? Going east > > up to > > the > > > > eisenhower tunnel on I-70 my max speed is about 30 MPH (second > > gear, > > foot > > > > to the floor, 2.1L, AT). > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Andrew Fox > > > > 86 Westy > > > > Ft. Collins CO > > > > > > >


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