Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 13:50:44 -0700
Reply-To: warmerwagen@HOTMAIL.COM
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From: "Robert KeezerHolen Sie mehr aus dem Web. Unter
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Subject: AW: Vanagon Virtues and Type 2 contrasts( was ahhh..
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Certainly the type two enthusiast who wins " best of show" for thier resto splittie I'm not speaking to.
For the average person who wants a good vehicle- well, you know hwat I mean.
I too drove my 65 splittie evrey day in 110 Phoenix heat all summer when I went to shcool there and I never had a problem. This was in 1980. Fuel quality was also better then. regular was 89 octane. Now regular is 85 -87.
Air-cooled engines run cooler on high octane.
Splitties are rare and when I am selling a Vanagon( I have one for sale right now) I point out the positive features like any good salesman. If a person likes the featrues of a vehicle they can work around it's problems if they have time or money or both. So it's for the splittie.
Sometimes i advise against buying my car based on your needs.
Case in point:
I sold my 64 Bus to a small lady with thin arms . I explained that it had no power steering, AC, or power brakes, and wasn't fast. she told me she had to commute the Seattle freeway 40 miles a day. She could not be convinced against my advice not to buy my Bus, that it is not suited fro this type of driving, but the lady said she had always wanted to own a classic bus you see in movies ,all her life. I did mauch commuting in my bus- rush hour is not fun especially when you can't rush. I couldn't afford a Gene berg race engine.( That would look cool to see a bus smoking tires in stop and go. )
It wasn't two weeks after she bought my bus that it was up for sale. She said she could not keep up with the traffic( really the humiliation of having all the cars behind you fill up the space in front of her in stop-and -go traffic.)
Well, maybe the show car guys can't relate since they have expensive motors most of us can't afford.There busses rarely see rush hour traffic or daily freeway driving.
A bus is quite happy out on the backroads, where i spent most of my time with my first bus. It's a great backroad vehicle. The gear reductors give a lot of torque. I have been on roads only 4 wd dare to go. But a modern high speed vehicle it is not. Driving one on the freeway here is almost like driving a moped -you are a sitting duck for a rear-end.
I bought my first VW bus in 1979. Even then it was an old car. it was as old as my vanagon is now. I have had much less trouble with my 82 Westy , my daily driver. Most of the work was upgrades or additions. I am not having to pull the engine every 1.5 years. I am an acomplished mechanic, my original training was with motorcycles and aircraft. I have worked on VW's for over twenty years. But I never rebuilt any of my bus engines. Maybe i should have. I even bought a GEX engine that blew at 47,000.
At first, I did'nt do anything to my first bus, in the two years i owned it the engine came out to change the notroious main seal and oil cooler seals. Otherise it was relatively trouble free. I got most of my VW repair experience daily driving a 1962 Ragtop bug for the next 8 years. That one also went thru three new engines , a trans and front suspension.
You would assume I neglected maintenance as the reason. To the contrary- I had stained glass in my garage as I religiously kept the maintenance of all my air-cooled -valve adjustments, timing, oil changes- all done on time.(every 3,000 miles). I spent much of my life adjusting the brakes, valves, points, fan belt, king and link pins, steering box, and toe in . Nothing I own goes without maintenance.
Which is why I feel guilty now. There is very little maintenence I can do mechanically on my Westy.
Funny, I sold my first bus in 1982 with over 80,000 on a rebuild still running strong .
I really believe it did so because the rebuilder was a local expert shop mechanic and that higher octane was available then.
Very few people drive old VW busses. Let's not claim that they all are unnhappy because of this until we ask them. Better yet, let's have them compare rides, power and handling- in a word- Drivaeability . We can use a vanagon or a SUV for this test. See the smiles dissapear after driving the bus 0 to 60 in fifteen minutes- and see how they continue to shake after going over the rough road test.Note how the SUV test puts most of them to sleep (the reason for rollovers?) during this test.
Let's say they all favor the bus instead. Where can we buy them? If the demand was high- we could not keep up the supply. Just look at all of them for sale in the papers!
Yet i must say I will never write to the Type 2 list and tell them they are driving the wrong vehicle. They are driving the right vehicle.
I am the only one who has had all the problems! .
Like riding buckboard on a covered wagon is a fair description or the ride the the torsion bars provide on the old spittie. . A more modern suspension design is coil springs , which all cars use today. Better ride , more comfort, happier passengers.
So, the average consumer needs a car that is user-friendly.
.
Maybe I took the bait for a flame war that will never start, but vanagon owners are a happy bunch. Leave us be .
Maybe the new microbus will start a revival and old busses will become mainstream and we will all sell our vanagons for the ambience only the Splittie or Type 2 can provide.
All I know is i sure like my cold beverages from my 3-way fridge, 115 hp engine and 20 mpg, a comfortable bed with a top bunk to boot, a stove sink and running water and heater. All these can be had in a bus but it helps to be a child or a midget. Wait til i add the shower!
Others like the Subaru engines, the 4WD, the awnings, AC, and cupholders.
Why do i sit here and type all these thoughts?
Probably becuse i did'nt want to go work on my Vanagon today..
Robert
1982 Westfalia
PS: James- 1982 Westfalia vanagon Water-cooled Diesel swapped for a water cooled gas inline -four-sweet yes!
The only thing that is air-cooled in it is passengers or me when the windows are rolled down!
----- Ursprüngliche Nachricht -----
Von: Jim Ellis
Gesendet: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:42 AM
An: warmerwagen@hotmail.com; Jim Ellis; Vanagon .com
Betreff: RE: Vanagon Virtues and Type 2 contrasts( was ahhh..
ellis replies to what warmerwagen@hotmail.com wrote:
> Vanagon Virtues and Contrasts to the Type 2 Here Extolled:
>
> The 67 Westy is almost everything you say when it's used for camping or
shows.
> The picture changes dramatically when you use it for a daily driver and long
> distance driver and do this for seven years. Or maybe I was just having seven
> years of bad luck?
>>It depends. The 67Westy that I have for sale has had every piece/aspect of
the bus completely disassembled and properly replaced or repaired. I have had
nearly no problems past the original shake down cruise to Tucson in March 97.
After that trip I installed a hard start relay. Yes, it has been used for
camping and shows but has cruised from Phoenix to Seattle, keeping up with the
Gene Berg Cruise II and still won Best Camper, All Years at the Vintage Meet.
The bus was built for my wife who has used it as a reliable daily driver in
Phoenix, which is likened to Los Angeles but with 110F degree weather. On the
otherhand I had a 1963 bus that I drove as a daily driver and did a "rolling
resto" to it and experienced every possible break down known in the splitty
drivers handbook.
> The Vanagon list is primarily composed of members who drive Vanagons.The
> Type 2 list is a safe haven from the raging Vanagon storm that could arise
> due to claims that the Vanagon is inferior to the Type 2 directed to the
> Vanagon list.
>> True, no argument. You preach the truth but it's more fun to create flame
bait about Air vs Water on the Vanagon list. Besides, it's mid-Summer and all
lists get boring without occassional faux arguments. ;-)
>
> Door handles that break after twenty years are most common with the long
> handled 80-84 Vanagons.
> Correct me if I am wrong about the year change to short handles. Short
> handles rarely break. Replace your long handle Vanagon sliding door handle
> with the shorter stronger later style.
>> I've broken handles on splitties and Vanagons. Basic fact is that schtuff
happens and then you repair it.
> Vanagon Dashboards don't have a problem with cracking from the sun. The 87
> Wolfsburg I have is from Arizona.
> I've seen many a cracked vinyl dash on the 68-79 Busses.
>>Agreed but it got a rise out of you and everyone knows that '68-'79 buses are
for fat chicks who can't belly up to splittie buses or afford to maintain the
leaking, electrically lurching Vanagons.
> I haven't had to change the coolant pipes end to end yet on my 82, but if I
> do soon-well, they lasted twenty years!
>> Coolant pipes on an 82? Radiator in an aircooled 2.0L? Sweet!
> Head gaskets leaking- yes- this is the main reason so many Vanagon owners are
> converting over to more reliable engines. Some have had phenomenal longevity
> and have seen over 150,000 leak -free miles on the original though. Aside
> from this, it has two to three times the life of a air-cooled engine. None of
> my air-cooled engines , all new or rebuilt, ever made it to 100,000. WBX
> engines can get twice that.
>> Some girl friends last years others wear out over night. It all depends on
the level of maintenance and how you drive them.
> They have more power, are quieter, and have less maintenance. Some air-cooled
> enthusiasts have adopted the WBX case to build a superior air-boxer motor.
> leaking head gaskets are indeed the exception and not the rule when it comes
> to the head gasket leak problem.. My engine , a inline four, rarely has this
> problem. Your air-cooled engine is more likely to burn up at 50,000 before
> mine blows a head gasket at 150,000.
>> See my last comment. Part of the factor is the environment.
> Other than engines that VW should have improved or replaced, the Vanagon has
> these improvements over the old pre-67 bus:
>
> 1.suspension- no gear reductor boxes to fill with gear oil or rebuild.
>>Syncho VC repairs = $1000. ReducTION boxes cost less to rebuild and 90wt is
cheap. Ya gotta maintain your ride.
> 2.No more grease fittings (the old bus has nine).
>> What is a Saturday with out laying on your back with your favorite grease
gun in your hand? Ya gotta keep it lubed to stay happy! =)
> 3.Better ride and handling , especially with power steering (84 and up) .
>> Dancing with big boned girls and truck drivers keep you strong. Plus it all
depends on how much feel of the road you like and how it's all set up.
> Handles better in wind, and aftermarket suspension products are available.
> Try finding new suspension and steering parts for the old busses- and when
> you find them you won't like the prices.
>>They are available and you are right about the prices. To a short man 6'4"
and 6'8" are both TALL.
> Front disc brakes- self adjusting brakes, power brakes. Vanagons are know for
> their very strong braking system.
>>Constant manual adjustment of your brakes makes you more familiar with your
vehicle and keeps you on your toes. I prefer having faith in my abilities than
having faith in a service tech of whom I have no knowledge.
> Wheel bearings are stronger, last longer.
Environment, usage and maintenance. See the comment above about the nine grease
zerk fittings.
> I have removed and replaced almost every part of my 64 and 65 busses.
>> Ah, so we do have something in common! =)
> I have done this on Vanagon also. It is easier to work on a Vanagon than a
> Bus.
>> If you say so...
> When we want to do a rear brake shoe replacement, we don't need a 1 inch
> braker bar and a 46 mm socket to stand on - the drum removes by loosing a 13
> mm bolt.
>>Huh, one little old 13mm bolt to retain the drum vs. a big-old castellated
nut with a cotter pin through it. Hmmm... one of those sounds under engineered!
> I recently removed a 67 bus trans- much easier to remove a vanagon trans
> because the engine can remain in the vehicle. It's also easier to move
> areound the shop having no heavy axles and reduction boxes attached.
>> What, you dont like Chiropractors? ;-)
> Now consider the roominess of the Vanagon compared to the Type 2.
> And the Westfalia design is second to none most would agree.
> Better visibility, more leg room, head room.
>> I've seen more heads in a splittie than in Vanagons. Just hold it low and be
cool... <kidding>
> How then does the Type 2 excel ? It's number one on classic style and
> appearance- especially if it has had about $25,000 invested to restore it
> from a rusted out hulk to a show and road worthy vehicle. I saw some nice
> ones on the road last weekend.
>> I'd love to show you my '67. There is plenty of "typical rust" relics being
passed off as starting point builders but you dont have to start there.
$25,000. is an exaggeration unless you factor in the alimony and child support
that usually results by the time you finish the "resto". It's better and
cheaper in the long run just to buy mine and call it good. Your S.O. will love
you for it. Just tell him/her that you had the best interest of the
relationship in mind when you bought my bus...
> Sometimes I wish I still has this vehicle with "soul". Then I remember how I
> wore out the soles- on my shoes from walking miles telephone.
>>Plan ahead, prepare the vehicle correctly in the first place and you should
minimize the sole-brother action.
> The cell-phone connected generation never had it so good.
>>Amen, brother! The Chambers Brothers, Blue Cheer, Jesse Colin Young and Tom
Rush still sound better on 8-tracks.
> And you have your A.I.R.S. who'll rescue you when you are ineveitably
> stranded somewhere.
>> Call AAA and then AA. hahaha
> If you had my luck you went thru 3 engines, a trans, suspension, gear
> reductor boxes, swing lever bushings, clutch , accelerator, and heater box
> cables, Shift lever bushings, wheel bearings. It was a constant weekly repair
and maintenance project that lasted seven years. That's because I can do all
my own maintenance.
>> Whelp, some people know how to turn a wrench and others just own tools and
talk smack. Call me if you need some help...
> If you don't have these skills and own a Type2- that says that you can afford
mechanics, and your car spends equal time between you and the shop.
>> Fat Chicks...
> The day that the Vanagon is in the Smithsonian is when we are all driving the
> "new" Vanagon in 2015. By then the new Microbus will be an old car.
>>Hahhaha... The day that the Vanagon is in the Smithsonian is the day that
museum's curator joins Robt. Downey Jr. in rehab.
> So I have made a case in the defense of the stronger WBX case and the best
> vehicle VW ever designed , the Vanagon.
> I now rest my case. Figuratively speaking.
>> More like relatively speaking...
-Ellis
67 Westfalia
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