Date:         Wed, 31 Jul 2002 15:44:54 +0100
Reply-To:     Clive Smith <clive.harman-smith@NTLWORLD.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Clive Smith <clive.harman-smith@NTLWORLD.COM>
Subject:      Re: WBX Whining
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

>All VW vans are evil handlers no matter what
any of you say. Those who think otherwise are not THINKING. Personality they
have. Handling is a joke. If you want real handling, drive a sportscar of
some sort.

Ben,

Relative Ben, relative! You can't go saying stuff like that, 'cos handling
of a 7 ton truck is not something that it profits anybody to compare to a
sports car. For their weight, load carrying ability, size and their class,
European T25's handle very well indeed. Some time ago, I detailed in this
list my younger brother's cross country antics in his '84 1.9 T25 panel van
used for flooring/carpet contracting.

The roads here are generally narrower and even A roads can be quite twisty,
and not always well surfaced. He could easily maintain cross country
averages (Cambridge to Oxford is very -cross- country) that were the same or
better than most saloon cars. Only someone as determined to attain a high
average speed in a good modern car would arrive much earlier, one advantage
not connected to the handling being the higher seating position and hence
much earlier awareness of oncoming traffic on B roads. But even loaded with
half a ton of carpets and kit, for several years he would drive this van
just like a sports saloon - and get away with it - thanks to the van having
adequate brakes, adequate wheels and tyres and adequate handling and
roadholding. Thanks VW, my bro's still kicking!

DON'T say these bricks handle like pigs, I've got a '88 Syncro panel van
with a 2.1 DJ 112BHP engine; the general handling is perfectly respectful -
and obviously some pretty good engineers had an input to this.

I'm 50 ish and have had over 30 different vehicles, in various states of
repair, from non-existent brakes, to bent worn out suspension parts and
driven them many, many miles - some extremely fast over long distances. I'm
also an ex engineer who has at least a passing familiarity with the concepts
of vehicle dynamics. From 34 years of driving slow, medium and fast cars and
vans, I'd say again - THEY DON'T HANDLE BADLY AT ALL - by European
standards, which as I'm sure you're aware, are standards that have only very
recently been attained in any US designed and built vehicle - and that with
a hell of a lot of input from engineers on 'that other continent' - not that
Europe hasn't had its 'pigs' too - but generally here they kill you, there
they just frighten you; the comparison that springs to mind, is between a
normal bike race track where riders go pretty well 101% flat out knowing
that they stand a good chance of getting up and walking away if they lose
it - and say, racing on the Isle of Man, where a slight mistake is highly
likely to result in serious injury or death - a real road race (between real
men) where only the first half dozen are going anything like 100%.
Additionally, European cars have tradtionally been lighter built - although
I note that our Prime Minsister's choice of vehicle, a Chevrolet 'People
Wagon'  thing, came bottom out of every vehicle of this type tested for
crash resistance and occupant protection, relying on airbags rather than a
sound, well thought out crash resistant design.

So there, lets have none of this garbage about T3's not handling - your
Vanagons are obviously crippled by unnecessary power steering, airconn, auto
boxes and hundredweights of badly placed surplus gear - leave your pocket
protectors at home and see how much difference that makes! And try replacing
those 'sway bars' with 'anti-roll' bars, might stop them lurching about so
much :-)

Clive
'88 Syncro Transporter



----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben T" <BenTbtstr8@AOL.COM>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: WBX Whining


> Stanthule, you list troll. See what you started? I have multiples of
various
> cars. But no more than three in each configuration. Oh yeah, I am not a
car
> dealer. Though I may have enough project cars to qualify as a junkyard
> operator.
>
> Anyway, my WBX has more than 200,000 miles on it's original heads and head
> gaskets. Drives well but it could never be mistaken for anything but a VW
> van. Old splitties and loaf vans have personality but I could never get
past
> the idea of adjusting valve and expecting to have my engine rebuilt every
> 60,000 miles. That was the service life being quoted by most VW related
> publications back in the 70's. All VW vans are evil handlers no matter
what
> any of you say. Those who think otherwise are not THINKING. Personality
they
> have. Handling is a joke. If you want real handling, drive a sportscar of
> some sort. If you like VW vans, enjoy it for what it is. Stop all this
> fantasizing & bickering. I have an 87 Vanagon GL w/ lowered H & R springs.
> 15" X 8" Porsche alloys with speed rated tires (for sidewall strength and
not
> speed -- lol). WBX 2.1. I love driving it even better than my Ruf prepared
> 911 SC. It is definitely a different driving experience. Get out of your
bus
> closets and enjoy then for what they are.
>
> As for spare parts, I carry them when I go out of town for fear that
breaking
> down somewhere will be a parts hunting nightmare. I had this same problem
> with my old gray market 928. Most of the time I just make sure my AAA dues
> are paid and a pocket full of cash. I did this even when driving my old
> Toyota Previa.
>
> BenT
> 87 GL WBX 2.1
> 89 16" Syncro 1.6td Double Cab
> 82 GL w/ 1.8 I-4 conversion
> plus various Porches, BMW's and MBZ's none of which has for sale signs on
> them.