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Date:         Fri, 30 Aug 2002 00:54:41 +0100
Reply-To:     Clive Smith <clive.harman-smith@NTLWORLD.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Clive Smith <clive.harman-smith@NTLWORLD.COM>
Subject:      Re: Custom Scoop Update - Should you care! - more b-l blurb
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

---- Original Message ----- From: "Stan Wilder" <wilden1@JUNO.COM> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:43 PM Subject: Re: Custom Scoop Update - Should you care! - more b-l blurb

> I'm beginning to love this link. > Each day I see it I have something to rave about. > Just install the darn things and if they work then they work. If they > don't work then contact Clive and he'll contact the British version of > NASA and get you proper instructions.

That would be RAE Farnborough I suppose, or failing that, some of his very old, tired (and scoop bored) brain cells!

> I added some scoops to my existing Vanagon air intakes and it blew up my > engine ............... it looked just like a big balloon in there. > It sure did stink when it flagellated all that extra air out. > > Stan

> On Thu, 29 Aug 2002 23:12:59 +0100 Clive Smith > <clive.harman-smith@NTLWORLD.COM> writes: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "80 Westy Pokey" <pokey@VANAGON.ORG> > > To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> > > Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 6:11 PM > > Subject: Re: Custom Scoop Update - Should you care! > > > > >What I really want to know is what happens to the airflow > > >once it enters the engine bay? After all the airflow entering > > >has to also exit. Would increasing the flow of exiting air > > >create a suction that would help breach the boundary layer? > > > > There is no need to 'breach' (whatever that is) the boundary layer > > as its > > very thin at even 70 mph at (even) the back of a Vanagon. > > The quotes you took from the 'stolen' material were just that - > > quotes - > > with no context and little relevance. > > > > The state of the boundary layer just fore of the intake, flush or > > scoop, > > laminar or turnulent, probably has little if any effetc on the flow > > rate > > into and through it. As various contributors have said in these > > mails, the > > pressure distribution at the inlet and exit is predominantly the > > deciding > > criterion. There is no appreciable RAM effect (on pressure) until > > well over > > 100 mph, so if the exhaust (exit) pressure is not lower than > > atmospheric, > > there will be considerable 'spill' which creates drag. This is the > > main > > thing the flush (VW) or NACA (optimised flush) inlet avoids. > > > > Clive > > '88 Syncro Transporter (with laminar flow side panels :-) > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "80 Westy Pokey" <pokey@VANAGON.ORG> > > To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> > > Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 6:11 PM > > Subject: Re: Custom Scoop Update - Should you care! > > > > > > > OK, I "Googled" and stole this from: > > > http://www.aviation-history.com/theory/lam-flow.htm&e=653 > > > Then applied the principals to our Vans: > > > > > > STOLEN MATERIAL BEGINS > > > ============================================================== > > > The airflow next to any surface forms a "boundary layer", as > > > the flow has zero velocity right at the surface and some > > > distance out from the surface it flows at the same velocity > > > as the local "outside" airflow. > > > > > > Consider the finish on your Vanagon in non-rainy conditions. > > > Dust and leaves have settled on the (admittedly short) hoods > > > paint. We go for a drive. At once the leaves blow off. But > > > the dust remains. We speed up. Even if we go very fast, the > > > dust remains because of the thin layer of air that moves with > > > the van. If you drive with dew on your van, the dew will not > > > so quickly be blown dry where the air flow has this thin > > > laminar layer. Downstream, where the laminar flow has become > > > turbulent, the air flow quickly dries the dew. > > > ============================================================== > > > STOLEN MATERIAL ENDS > > > > > > Since the further you move away from the body, the greater > > > the airflow, wouldnt a scoop still increase airflow into the > > > upper air intakes because it creates turbulent air outside of > > > the laminar flow? Wouldnt it stand to reason that the > > > further out you get from the boundary layer the more moving > > > air you can grab? If scoops dont work why do modern F1 cars > > > still use them? > > > > > > What I really want to know is what happens to the airflow > > > once it enters the engine bay? After all the airflow entering > > > has to also exit. Would increasing the flow of exiting air > > > create a suction that would help breach the boundary layer? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > ---- Original message ---- > > > >Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 12:23:17 -0400 > > > >From: "G. Matthew Bulley" <gmbulley@bulley-hewlett.com> > > > >Subject: RE: Custom Scoop Update - Should you care! > > > >To: <pokey@vanagon.org> > > > >Cc: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> > > > > > > > >I'd suggest Googling on "laminar flow" "intake" and "hood > > > scoop", > > > >(separately, and together). There's a bunch of info out > > > there on the > > > >efficiencies/limits of both. > > > > > > > > > > > >Developing business and guiding change since 1996, > > > > > > > >G. Matthew Bulley > > > >Bulley-Hewlett > > > >Marketing & Communications > > > >Business: www.bulley-hewlett.com > > > >AIM = IExplain4u > > > >Phone: +1.919.658.1278 > > > > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > > >From: 80 Westy Pokey [mailto:pokey@vanagon.org] > > > >Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 11:27 AM > > > >To: gmbulley@BULLEY-HEWLETT.COM > > > >Cc: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > > > >Subject: Re: Custom Scoop Update - Should you care! > > > > > > > >I don't understand the physics of this pressure wave. If it > > > >were true that the scoops intake was negligible because of > > > >the pressure wave, then why don't the front vent windows > > > >produce the same pressure wave? I get HUGE airflow through > > > my > > > >front vent windows, aren"t they the same thing? > > > > > > > >Thanks, > > > >Chris > > > > > > > >Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:27:07 -0400 > > > >Reply-To: "G. Matthew Bulley" <gmbulley@BULLEY- > > > >HEWLETT.COM> > > > >Sender: Vanagon Mailing List > > > <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com> > > > >From: "G. Matthew Bulley" <gmbulley@BULLEY- > > > >HEWLETT.COM> > > > >Organization: Bulley-Hewlett > > > >Subject: Re: Custom Scoop Update - Should you care! > > > >In-Reply-To: <001a01c24991$49f87360$6401a8c0@mindspring.com> > > > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > > >Scoops? For what? > > > >Maybe I've missed out by being off list. > > > > > > > >I pray these are not some sort of DIY 'improvement' the > > > >laminar flow > > > >induction duct at the rear of our vans. Boston Bob and I > > > have > > > >gone a > > > >round or two on p-mail in the past over > > > >his "ears" 'improvements' the > > > >well-designed VW ducts. > > > > > > > >Long and short, if these 'scoops have to do with airflow > > > into > > > >the rear > > > >ducts, think again. Then look at *all* modern sports cars > > > and > > > >realize > > > >that "scoops" have gone the way of the Holley 4-barrel. > > > >Scoops create a > > > >pressure wave right in front of the induction hole, making > > > >their intake > > > >negligible. Measure your before and after head temp to > > > >confirm. > > > > > > > >Laminar flow ducts, (like on the Vanagon, Porsche Boxster, > > > >MR2, Saleen > > > >SR & S7, Honda S2000, and a host of other cars) are > > > multifold > > > >more > > > >efficient, and are only ruined by 'scoops' and 'ears'. > > > > > > > >So what are these "scoops" all about? > > > > > > > >Developing business and guiding change since 1996, > > > > > > > >G. Matthew Bulley > > > >Bulley-Hewlett > > > >Marketing & Communications > > > >Business: www.bulley-hewlett.com > > > >AIM = IExplain4u > > > >Phone: +1.919.658.1278 > > > > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > > >From: Vanagon Mailing List > > > [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM] > > > >On Behalf > > > >Of Mark Thoma > > > >Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 12:06 AM > > > >To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > > > >Subject: Custom Scoop Update - Should you care! > > > > > > > >The scoop on the scoops, > > > >After patching up my screw ups on one of the scoop molds, I > > > >took them > > > >both (right and left) to a boat repair guy here in the > > > >Cleveland area > > > >who does a lot of fiberglass gelcoat kinda stuff and he > > > >said "well they > > > >look pretty darn nice, but... (like peewee herman > > > >said, "Everybody's got > > > >a big but") you need to polish and buff the molds now, then > > > >spray in > > > >release agent, then a layer of gelcoat then 4 layers of > > > >fiberglass cloth > > > >and the fiberglass cloth needs to go on top of the gelcoat > > > >while the > > > >gelcoat is still tacky." > > > >Me, feeling an assault on my wallet coming on, said "How > > > >much?" > > > >He said "$100 bucks for the pair of finished scoops." To > > > >which I said, > > > >"Go for it." > > > >Then he said, "But you can sell these things to all of your > > > >Vanagon > > > >buddies and make all your time and effort pay off." And I > > > >said "Well > > > >why wouldn't I just make all the subsequent scoops myself, > > > >after all I > > > >have the molds?" > > > >To which he replied, "You could but the molds have to be > > > >polished and > > > >buffed between each use, and that takes a lot of work, and > > > >then you have > > > >to shoot the gelcoat, lay the 4 layers of fiberglass cloth, > > > >etc." > > > >So I said "Well how much for each set of scoops?" > > > >And he said "$100 per pair no matter how many pairs we make." > > > >And I said, "But how much could I sell them for?" > > > >And he said, "Something this nice, $175 for the pair." > > > >And I said, "Those cheap bast----I mean those economically > > > >minded > > > >fellows on the Vanagon list will never pay that much." > > > >And he said, "Okay tell them $150 for the pair and you'll > > > pay > > > >the > > > >shipping. And if you don't sell one pair what do you care, > > > >you still > > > >have the scoops you wanted in the first place?" > > > >And I said, "MAKES SENSE TO ME!" > > > >So that's the long and short of it. I should have the first > > > >pair back > > > >in a week. I'll take some pictures of them mounted on the > > > >van and > > > >you'll know how to reach me should you want a set. > > > >Mark > > > > > > > >Mark Thoma > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. >


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