Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 17:43:21 -0500
Reply-To: Stan Wilder <wilden1@JUNO.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Stan Wilder <wilden1@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Custom Scoop Update - Should you care! - more b-l blurb
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
I'm beginning to love this link.
Each day I see it I have something to rave about.
Just install the darn things and if they work then they work. If they
don't work then contact Clive and he'll contact the British version of
NASA and get you proper instructions.
I added some scoops to my existing Vanagon air intakes and it blew up my
engine ............... it looked just like a big balloon in there.
It sure did stink when it flagellated all that extra air out.
Stan
On Thu, 29 Aug 2002 23:12:59 +0100 Clive Smith
<clive.harman-smith@NTLWORLD.COM> writes:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "80 Westy Pokey" <pokey@VANAGON.ORG>
> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 6:11 PM
> Subject: Re: Custom Scoop Update - Should you care!
>
> >What I really want to know is what happens to the airflow
> >once it enters the engine bay? After all the airflow entering
> >has to also exit. Would increasing the flow of exiting air
> >create a suction that would help breach the boundary layer?
>
> There is no need to 'breach' (whatever that is) the boundary layer
> as its
> very thin at even 70 mph at (even) the back of a Vanagon.
> The quotes you took from the 'stolen' material were just that -
> quotes -
> with no context and little relevance.
>
> The state of the boundary layer just fore of the intake, flush or
> scoop,
> laminar or turnulent, probably has little if any effetc on the flow
> rate
> into and through it. As various contributors have said in these
> mails, the
> pressure distribution at the inlet and exit is predominantly the
> deciding
> criterion. There is no appreciable RAM effect (on pressure) until
> well over
> 100 mph, so if the exhaust (exit) pressure is not lower than
> atmospheric,
> there will be considerable 'spill' which creates drag. This is the
> main
> thing the flush (VW) or NACA (optimised flush) inlet avoids.
>
> Clive
> '88 Syncro Transporter (with laminar flow side panels :-)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "80 Westy Pokey" <pokey@VANAGON.ORG>
> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 6:11 PM
> Subject: Re: Custom Scoop Update - Should you care!
>
>
> > OK, I "Googled" and stole this from:
> > http://www.aviation-history.com/theory/lam-flow.htm&e=653
> > Then applied the principals to our Vans:
> >
> > STOLEN MATERIAL BEGINS
> > ==============================================================
> > The airflow next to any surface forms a "boundary layer", as
> > the flow has zero velocity right at the surface and some
> > distance out from the surface it flows at the same velocity
> > as the local "outside" airflow.
> >
> > Consider the finish on your Vanagon in non-rainy conditions.
> > Dust and leaves have settled on the (admittedly short) hood’s
> > paint. We go for a drive. At once the leaves blow off. But
> > the dust remains. We speed up. Even if we go very fast, the
> > dust remains because of the thin layer of air that moves with
> > the van. If you drive with dew on your van, the dew will not
> > so quickly be blown dry where the air flow has this thin
> > laminar layer. Downstream, where the laminar flow has become
> > turbulent, the air flow quickly dries the dew.
> > ==============================================================
> > STOLEN MATERIAL ENDS
> >
> > Since the further you move away from the body, the greater
> > the airflow, wouldn’t a scoop still increase airflow into the
> > upper air intakes because it creates turbulent air outside of
> > the laminar flow? Wouldn’t it stand to reason that the
> > further out you get from the boundary layer the more moving
> > air you can grab? If scoops don’t work why do modern F1 cars
> > still use them?
> >
> > What I really want to know is what happens to the airflow
> > once it enters the engine bay? After all the airflow entering
> > has to also exit. Would increasing the flow of exiting air
> > create a suction that would help breach the boundary layer?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > ---- Original message ----
> > >Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 12:23:17 -0400
> > >From: "G. Matthew Bulley" <gmbulley@bulley-hewlett.com>
> > >Subject: RE: Custom Scoop Update - Should you care!
> > >To: <pokey@vanagon.org>
> > >Cc: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> > >
> > >I'd suggest Googling on "laminar flow" "intake" and "hood
> > scoop",
> > >(separately, and together). There's a bunch of info out
> > there on the
> > >efficiencies/limits of both.
> > >
> > >
> > >Developing business and guiding change since 1996,
> > >
> > >G. Matthew Bulley
> > >Bulley-Hewlett
> > >Marketing & Communications
> > >Business: www.bulley-hewlett.com
> > >AIM = IExplain4u
> > >Phone: +1.919.658.1278
> > >
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: 80 Westy Pokey [mailto:pokey@vanagon.org]
> > >Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 11:27 AM
> > >To: gmbulley@BULLEY-HEWLETT.COM
> > >Cc: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > >Subject: Re: Custom Scoop Update - Should you care!
> > >
> > >I don't understand the physics of this pressure wave. If it
> > >were true that the scoops intake was negligible because of
> > >the pressure wave, then why don't the front vent windows
> > >produce the same pressure wave? I get HUGE airflow through
> > my
> > >front vent windows, aren"t they the same thing?
> > >
> > >Thanks,
> > >Chris
> > >
> > >Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:27:07 -0400
> > >Reply-To: "G. Matthew Bulley" <gmbulley@BULLEY-
> > >HEWLETT.COM>
> > >Sender: Vanagon Mailing List
> > <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
> > >From: "G. Matthew Bulley" <gmbulley@BULLEY-
> > >HEWLETT.COM>
> > >Organization: Bulley-Hewlett
> > >Subject: Re: Custom Scoop Update - Should you care!
> > >In-Reply-To: <001a01c24991$49f87360$6401a8c0@mindspring.com>
> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > >
> > >Scoops? For what?
> > >Maybe I've missed out by being off list.
> > >
> > >I pray these are not some sort of DIY 'improvement' the
> > >laminar flow
> > >induction duct at the rear of our vans. Boston Bob and I
> > have
> > >gone a
> > >round or two on p-mail in the past over
> > >his "ears" 'improvements' the
> > >well-designed VW ducts.
> > >
> > >Long and short, if these 'scoops have to do with airflow
> > into
> > >the rear
> > >ducts, think again. Then look at *all* modern sports cars
> > and
> > >realize
> > >that "scoops" have gone the way of the Holley 4-barrel.
> > >Scoops create a
> > >pressure wave right in front of the induction hole, making
> > >their intake
> > >negligible. Measure your before and after head temp to
> > >confirm.
> > >
> > >Laminar flow ducts, (like on the Vanagon, Porsche Boxster,
> > >MR2, Saleen
> > >SR & S7, Honda S2000, and a host of other cars) are
> > multifold
> > >more
> > >efficient, and are only ruined by 'scoops' and 'ears'.
> > >
> > >So what are these "scoops" all about?
> > >
> > >Developing business and guiding change since 1996,
> > >
> > >G. Matthew Bulley
> > >Bulley-Hewlett
> > >Marketing & Communications
> > >Business: www.bulley-hewlett.com
> > >AIM = IExplain4u
> > >Phone: +1.919.658.1278
> > >
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: Vanagon Mailing List
> > [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM]
> > >On Behalf
> > >Of Mark Thoma
> > >Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 12:06 AM
> > >To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > >Subject: Custom Scoop Update - Should you care!
> > >
> > >The scoop on the scoops,
> > >After patching up my screw ups on one of the scoop molds, I
> > >took them
> > >both (right and left) to a boat repair guy here in the
> > >Cleveland area
> > >who does a lot of fiberglass gelcoat kinda stuff and he
> > >said "well they
> > >look pretty darn nice, but... (like peewee herman
> > >said, "Everybody's got
> > >a big but") you need to polish and buff the molds now, then
> > >spray in
> > >release agent, then a layer of gelcoat then 4 layers of
> > >fiberglass cloth
> > >and the fiberglass cloth needs to go on top of the gelcoat
> > >while the
> > >gelcoat is still tacky."
> > >Me, feeling an assault on my wallet coming on, said "How
> > >much?"
> > >He said "$100 bucks for the pair of finished scoops." To
> > >which I said,
> > >"Go for it."
> > >Then he said, "But you can sell these things to all of your
> > >Vanagon
> > >buddies and make all your time and effort pay off." And I
> > >said "Well
> > >why wouldn't I just make all the subsequent scoops myself,
> > >after all I
> > >have the molds?"
> > >To which he replied, "You could but the molds have to be
> > >polished and
> > >buffed between each use, and that takes a lot of work, and
> > >then you have
> > >to shoot the gelcoat, lay the 4 layers of fiberglass cloth,
> > >etc."
> > >So I said "Well how much for each set of scoops?"
> > >And he said "$100 per pair no matter how many pairs we make."
> > >And I said, "But how much could I sell them for?"
> > >And he said, "Something this nice, $175 for the pair."
> > >And I said, "Those cheap bast----I mean those economically
> > >minded
> > >fellows on the Vanagon list will never pay that much."
> > >And he said, "Okay tell them $150 for the pair and you'll
> > pay
> > >the
> > >shipping. And if you don't sell one pair what do you care,
> > >you still
> > >have the scoops you wanted in the first place?"
> > >And I said, "MAKES SENSE TO ME!"
> > >So that's the long and short of it. I should have the first
> > >pair back
> > >in a week. I'll take some pictures of them mounted on the
> > >van and
> > >you'll know how to reach me should you want a set.
> > >Mark
> > >
> > >Mark Thoma
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
| 
