Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 2002 02:35:21 +0100
Reply-To:     Clive Smith <clive.harman-smith@NTLWORLD.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Clive Smith <clive.harman-smith@NTLWORLD.COM>
Subject:      Re: Eurovans future (now-vw does not make sportscars)
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NB. Nil Vanagon content

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Blake" <blake@OAKHARBOR.NET>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: Eurovans future (now-vw does not make sportscars)


> Remember the Omni, Colt,
> Escort, Fiesta, Corolla, Civic, 323, Justy, Metro, etc?  VW is their
momma.
> Thanks VW for creating a genre of fun driver cars (twice) that can carry
> stuff in the back.

Metro? I think you'll find that the original Austin Mini was its Momma, and
as for hatchbacks the Austin A40 Farina (early 60's) was the momma of them
all! So Austin defined this concept totally, but didn't invest in refining
it fast enough (maybe the British disease - as with computers, swing wings,
vertical take off fighters - you name it!).

>  But handling? The Golf 1 was a  handling benchmark.
> All subsequent VWs (excepting the T3) were understeering pigs,
> and that's the "European" suspensions... the US versions were far worse.
>
The Mk 1 Golf  handled 'nice', but wasn't THAT good. Overall car was perhaps
a benchmark, but Peugeot 205 GTI and before that all the Lancia Betas
handled better and ride was more comfortable with it.

> VW got lucky on the A1, they designed something that was cheap and easy to
> manufacture.  Theoretically the suspension design on all fwd vws sucks ass
> (Torsion beam WTF? anybody ever heard of A-arms and independent
suspension?
> not VW).

Torsion WTF indeed? Whaddya saying? Its not the suspension design on fwd's
that sucks, its the suspension design that transmutes an inherently
understeering vehicle into one that is nominally neutral (by modifying the
virtual roll centres, and front to rear roll-centre axis). I've driven quite
a few minis that were inherently oversteering cars and in the wrong hands,
lethal, so better understand where suspension designers are coming from
here - old grannies and litigation, same reason VW never put front lockers
on US Syncros. Understeering is an inherently 'stable' state, oversteering
isn't!

> Also, ALL front drive cars are understeering pigs to some degree,
> think about it, (hint-weight transfer).

 Re my comments above, they'd be dangerous if they oversteered in extremis -
it's the ability to switch the car's stance from understeering to
oversteering and vice versa by judicious steering, braking and power inputs
that makes them so fast and delightful in the right hands. Timo Makinen and
Paddy Hopkirk just couldn't believe the speeds they were driving their
Coooper S's at in '67 and '68 on poor surfaces, as they just didn't seem to
be trying that hard or taking big risks - much to Porsche's chagrin - and
the French too who decided to disqualify them from the Monte Carlo Rallye
after they'd won - for not being to original spec. (they'd settled on their
rubber suspension about 1/2" between start and finish - big deal and not
especially surprising!).


> Vanagon content...My van doesn't make a good sports car or auto-x car
unless
> the objective is to run over the cones and spectators at slow lumbering
> speeds (thump - pause - thump).  However the potential is there, I
actually
> passed other cars going over Washington pass on the last trip over HWY 20,
> amazing.

I agree at last, the potential is there, except that weight is high and
hence requires lots of tyre, power and brake. Not exactly 'chuckable'
either, but well balanced with plenty of traction.

Clive
'88 Syncro Transporter