Date:         Tue, 1 Oct 2002 16:51:50 -0400
Reply-To:     The Bus Depot <vanagon@BUSDEPOT.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         The Bus Depot <vanagon@BUSDEPOT.COM>
Subject:      Re: More Info on Copper Core German Radiators
In-Reply-To:  <99.2d440c41.2acb1ddd@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

In a message dated 10/1/02 11:25:10 AM, George Goff writes of Ken Wilfy:

> Or, in this case, is the definition of "imagine":
> to form a notion of without sufficient basis?

after writing such comments as ...

> Judging from the print quality of the last manual
>  I bought from them, (Bentley Publishers) might
> be on the ropes.

and ...

> (Regarding Ken Wilfy's German radiators), removing
> the manufacturer's trademark name is usually done to
> second quality merchandise.

and, previously, advising people to ...

> tell the vendor that you want a replacement part
> which was made in Germany and labeled consistent
> with the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations.  Saying
> that makes it a condition of the sales agreement between
> a willing seller and a willing buyer.  It works for me every time.



Although the criticisms in these particular threads seem to be directed at
VanAgain and Bentley this time and not at me (for a change :-), I feel that
I have to jump in here because of the absurdity of some of these claims.

George, I have no doubt that your intentions are good, but your advice is
bad.  In fact, ironically it is you who seems to "form notions without
sufficient basis," to borrow a phrase with which you have just accused Ken
Wilfy.  This can be hamful if these "notions" are presented with such an air
of authority or pseudo-expertise that they get mistaken for fact.

When you posted the message which I quoted last (suggesting that listmembers
demand "only German parts"), I took the trouble to explain in great detail
why this would be a very bad idea. Rather than to copy that post below, if
anyone would like to read it, the direct link from the archives is:
http://gerry.vanagon.com/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0209D&L=vanagon&P=R9905

Now, just a few short days later, Ken WIlfy is in fact offering just that -
a German made radiator.  But you now want proof such as "btu/hr ratings"
that it's better than the South African one, and vaguely imply that Ken is
misleading us if he cannot provide it.  This has me very perplexed. After
all, aren't you the very same person who just said that you buy nothing but
German parts for your Vanagon, as a strict and unwavering condition of sale,
and advised everyone else to do the same?  Based on your own assertion just
days earlier, had you in fact ordered a radiator from Ken, you'd have
accepted nothing _but_ the German one as a matter of course, and in fact
would have refused the radiator if the one he sent was _not_ German! Or
perhaps you have now recanted that position in view of the arguments
presented against it - in which case I must certainly give you credit for
doing so.

You then go on to state that Ken's radiators may be factory seconds, simply
because the VW logo is removed.  And when he refutes it, you continue to
argue the point, based solely on your experience that in outlet stores some
brand name tags are removed on factory seconds.  Your experience with
imperfect trousers in outlet malls notwithstanding, I can confirm Ken's
claim that it is relatively common among OE suppliers of VW parts for them
to grind off the VW logo.  As I understand it, this is because the
manufacturer may only be licensed to use the VW logo on inventory that he is
private-labeling for VW, but not on inventory that he is selling directly
under his own brand.  It does not necessarily imply that the product is a
second.

You then proceed to imply, in a separate email, that Bentley Publishers
might be having financial problems, based solely on the fact that you don't
like the print quality in their book.  While I am not privy to Bentley's
financial statements, I can report that they have been shipping promptly,
releasing new titles on schedule, and have had over a 90% fill rate on
recent orders that I have placed. By comparison, suppliers who are
experiencing financial difficulty tend to delay new product introductions,
ship late, and have a high stockout rate on customer orders.

Of course this is mostly a group of enthusiasts, and none of us is an expert
on everything.  We all learn from eachother, which is how it should be.
However, this also entails a bit of self restraint, so that the "signal to
noise ratio" is maximized.  I have always found that if you do not know of
what you speak, it is often best not to speak it, but rather to reserve
judgement and defer to someone who does.  This particularly applies when the
statement that you are thinking of making involves criticism of some sort.
For example, rather than insinuating that Ken's radiators are factory
seconds, you might have _asked_ him whether the same experience you had with
removed labels at outlet stores applies to auto parts.

Incidentally, with regard to the original subject at hand, while "Btu/hr
ratings" are not commonly quoted on auto radiators, I can provide the
following emperical feedback. I carried the AKG German radiators myself a
couple of years ago.  I sold many of them, as well as many of the aluminum
VW/South African ones. Out of all those sold, I had exactly one factory
defect of each brand (in each case, a leak at the seam), and no reports of
problems a year or two down the road either.  When I replaced my own German
copper radiator with a South African aluminum one two years ago, I saw no
noticable "real world" change in performance (i.e. my '89 Westy ran at the
same temperature as before, etc.). Therefore my own experience gave me no
reason to recommend either over the other (except on basis of price).
Presently, I have the South African ones on sale for $149.95.

- Ron Salmon
  The Bus Depot, Inc.
  (215) 234-VWVW
  www.busdepot.com

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