Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 14:54:05 -0400
Reply-To: Jay L Snyder <Jay.L.Snyder@USA.DUPONT.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Jay L Snyder <Jay.L.Snyder@USA.DUPONT.COM>
Subject: Re: Does a worn pressure relief valve cause Oil pressure buzzer?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
The oil pressure relief valve would have no reason to open after the
initial start up. It opens when the oil is cold and viscous. Once the oil
is up to temp, it would not move. Why would it cause you problems only
after cresting a hill? Your engine is showing some wear. Put an oil
pressure gauge on it. You will see high pressure when cold 80 to 90 psi.
This is when your relief is opening. As soon as it starts to drop, the
valve closes. By the way, it is a cylindrical body. The spring is what
maintains the 80 psi setting. I can not believe you are using a toilet
paper oil filter. Toilet paper is for wiping your a**.
Jay
Mark Keller <kelphoto@HIGHSPEEDPLUS.COM>@gerry.vanagon.com> on 10/03/2002
02:36:57 PM
Please respond to Mark Keller <kelphoto@HIGHSPEEDPLUS.COM>
Sent by: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
cc:
Subject: Re: Does a worn pressure relief valve cause Oil pressure
buzzer?
Stuart,
Thanks for the info. Is the relief valve cylindrical or spherical? My
thoughts were that a cylindrical valve with wear could flutter stick or
operate slower when the bore was heat expanded OR a spherical type could
have
bad seat or crack seat, or a wear deformity in the ball surface.
I hadn't considered a broken helical spring, but a weak helical spring, and
thin oil at high temps and wear could be an issue. If I turn the key off
and
immediately on the issue does not repeat usually. The last time thought it
triggered several times. What I'm not telling you though is I have a Gulf
Coast submicronic filter which taps via a TEE to the blue sensor
pressurized
port between the push rod tubes. On occasion, and this is one, the filter
element, toilet paper will not be dimensionally as large as other TP rolls.
Scott 1000 single ply is the recommended media-- but seems unavailable
here.
I'm using Scott 500 two ply, but there is a difference in the paper. My
suspicion is that while this filter system isn't the total culprit, it adds
it
bit of pressure loss.
Also has David just pointed out to me, overfilling exacerbates the heat
issue.
I'm currently overfilled, as I mentioned the sub micronic canister, at
times
getting the oil level is extremely tedious and I just let stay high level
and
burn off. So I'm sure the engine was on the high end of the temperature
scale
when I did a 5 minute mountain climb at max power of 4400 rpm , second gear
in
the automatic with the van carrying 1500 lbs of payload. Just after crested
the
top and let off and the engine rpm dropped to 3200 and 3rd gear then I got
the
buzzer. Key off then on, and no more alarms until an hour later.
However, I believe I read from David Beierl, that the circuit is designed
with slope sensing, i.e. if a drop or increase is of such a velocity that
the
tolerance would be exceeded, then the circuit arms. So the circuit could
easily "jump the Gun" if a slow pressure valve or sudden drop in rpm causes
a
quick drop in oil pressure.
I did note in your post that the High pressure sender port is upstream of
everything, so a fluctuation at that point could come from the pump or
something downstream letting the pressure out. Is the oil pressure relief
valve just downstream from the .9 bar sender or just before it?
Also you mention the removal and replacement needing a special tool. Is
this a
KD or Liesle, or a VW source. Looks like this cover plate plate on my
engine,
near the dip stick entry is weeping oil as well.
I think the real issue seems to be that a mass market synthetic like MOBIL
1 is
not the best choice given high time motors and the thermal expansion of the
alloy case. I've used REDLINE and it seems thicker, at room temp, I wonder
if
really we should just avoid the mass market synthetic and stay with a
premium
synthetic , especially for an over 100k engine. Mine uses no oil, is
strong
and has virtually rock steady 13.5" vacuum at idle. I have "vaporized"
oil
consumption with the thinner synthetics .
Stuart MacMillan wrote:
> Mark,
>
> This is pretty unlikely, but possible. It would take a lot of grit in
the
> oil to wear the valve enough to cause this. Usually relief valves stick
> closed, but springs can break too. It's an easy replacement (buy the
proper
> tool, it's cheap) if you want to try this, but if you find a very worn
> relief valve then your oil pump is shot too, since it pumped the same
grit!
>
> Unfortunately, the WBX is not a very tight engine under the best
conditions,
> and the expansion of the alloy case causes oil pressure to drop as it
heats
> up, further opening the already loose tolerances. Since it is the main
and
> rod bearings that affect oil pressure the most, as they wear you start to
> see the pressure drop, and this is more pronounced the harder the engine
> works. The rod big ends start to get oval with use, and this is probably
> the main cause of low oil pressure. See my article on Tom's pages:
> http://volksweb.relitech.com/21rodbrg.htm
>
> The new sender at the oil pump measures the highest pressure the pump can
> deliver, and everything else downstream gets less. The sender between
the
> pushrod tubes measures the pressure at the main bearings, where the most
> severe loads are, and this is where the gauge should be installed.
Further
> downstream are the lifters which need oil pressure to maintain zero lash,
> and through them oil goes up the pushrods to lube the rockers. The
lifters
> can normally drain down after periods of sitting, and should pump up
> immediately if oil pressure is good. Quite often they can take a few
> minutes of running to do so, every WBX I've owned as done this
occasionally.
> Marvel Mystery Oil can help this, as it is a solvent that can clean out
> "stuck" lifters. Much is in the archives on this.
>
> Get a gauge and remove the uncertainty of your situation. As a quick fix
> try mineral 20w 50 oil, the synthetics are physically much thinner, and
this
> can have a dramatic effect on the WBX oil pressure.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Keller [mailto:kelphoto@highspeedplus.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 8:03 AM
> To: Stuart MacMillan; Vanagon Mailing List
> Subject: Does a worn pressure relief valve cause Oil pressure buzzer?
>
> Stuart,
>
> I am having this issue on occasion, with similar conditions: heat
> soaked, i.e. long climb, Mobil 1 syntheitc and get the buzzer just after
> letting off of the throttle, i.e. cresting the hill. I'm also having
> very infrequent but associated with the buzzer episodes a split second
> valve clatter like once a year, but it will happen two or three times
> then not again for a year.
>
> Can you shed any light on the possibility of these events being caused
> by a worn pressure relief valve.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Mark Keller
> 91 Carat
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