Date:         Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:34:13 -0500
Reply-To:     Stan Wilder <wilden1@JUNO.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Stan Wilder <wilden1@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Lets do Engine Rebuilding Math!
Comments: To: kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I agree with Ken on everything he said.
As a retail buyer of parts and paying UPS charges it isn't any cheaper to
rebuild your own engine.
I've never bought Waser Boxer parts but with the type IV air-cooled there
are about $800.00 in just parts before you take your rods, crank,
flywheel, heads out for machine shop services.
It is a case of whether you want to tackle the job yourself for the sake
of knowing more about your engine or rebuilding your own engine gives you
more pride.
In my case I've enjoyed building the Type IV engines and having rebuilt a
few I'm more knowledgeable about what makes them fail early and address
the things that might make them last longer.
I do find contest in how "bulk" rebuilders operate with a barrel of rods,
rack of cases, barrel of rocker assemblies, racks of crankshafts.
In my mind the original components of the engine need to all stay
together for the life or many lives of the engine. That may be foolish
thinking but every bolt nut, washer, rocker arm goes right back into the
same engine I got it from. I like to get my micrometers out and make my
own decisions on what goes back in.
If I want 60 psi oil pressure at 3000 rpms I can normally get it with
selectively picking my parts or machining for a proper fit.
I enjoy doing the detective work and finding out exactly what caused the
engine to fail.
Other than the cause of failure there are always clues that tell you that
the part that failed was only part of a chain of failing parts.
One of the best and most common war stories is the missed alignment pin
on #3 main bearing.
Another is the backside of #1 bearing burned / worn severely because of
poor end play settings.
Some engine foibles don't cause failures they just shorten engine life
until you drop a valve seat or run low on oil and smoke the rod bearings.
Engine rebuilders know about all these things and as a general rule they
have production techniques that assure that each engine is worth the
warranty they put on it.
I'm not saying I can do a better job, I'm just saying that I've got the
time and find the rebuilding process educational and rewarding for me.

Stan Wilder
83 Air Cooled Westfalia

On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:37:48 -0400 Kenneth Wilford <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET>
writes:
> OK, we have had some discussion on the list lately about who is the
> good
> engine rebuilder to go with, and how you can tell, etc.  I think one
> easy
> way is to just do the math.  Sit down and look at all of the
> components that
> should be replaced when doing a real engine rebuild (versus a
> reassembly).
>
> 2 new heads- $790
> 1 new set main bearings- $75
> 1 new set cam bearings- $9
> 1 new of pistons cylinder and rings- $275
> 1 new oil pump- $25
> 1 complete engine gasket set- $120
> 1 set of rebuilt rods- $140
> 1 set of new lifters- $72
> 1 reground cam- $80
> 8 pushrod tubes- $72
> Total- $1658
>
> This does not factor in align boring the case if that is needed or
> shipping
> on these parts.  Also this doesn't factor in intangibles like a
> rebuilder
> who has been doing this for many years and knows tricks and things
> that we
> would not know.  Compare this to the cost of a Boston Engine rebuild
> ($2300)
> and you have about a $642 difference.  Now I charge $50 per hour as
> a
> mechanic and $642 would only buy 12 hours of my time.  So you are
> getting
> all of the rebuilders know-how, years of experience for $642.
> Sounds like a
> good deal to me.
>
> If you have a rebuilder who is selling a motor for the cost of
> recommended
> replacement parts alone ($1648) (or less) you have to wonder what is
> not
> being replaced.  Some rebuilders make "hidden" money by not
> refunding your
> core deposit("the engine is worn out so your core is no good."  Gee
> why was
> I putting in a rebuilt engine in the first place!).
>
> However if you were just having an engine "reassembly" done and not
> a
> rebuild then your cost would be less of course.  If you are re-using
> many of
> the internal components of the engine because they appear to be
> "all-good"
> then you could do a reassmebly for this cost:
>
> 2 rebuilt heads- $420 (AVP)
> 1 engine gasket set- $120
> 1 set of rings- $75
> 1 set of main bearings- $75
> 1 set of cam bearings- $9
> Total- $699
>
> By these figures if a rebuilder is charging around $1600 for this
> type of
> "rebuild" (which is really just a "reassembly" with used parts) then
> he is
> putting in his pocket $901.  And then if your core is "bad" because
> it is
> "worn out" you may wind up spending an addtional $300-$600 in core
> costs.
> That means that the cheap "rebuild" turns out to be almost the same
> price as
> an actual rebuild.  You are getting less "rebuild" for more money.
>
> So do the math, ask the rebuilder exactly what you are getting for
> the
> money.  And understand that sometimes for a little more money, you
> can
> actually get a lot more in quality.  Just FYI.  Any comments are
> encouraged.
> No I don't know what the BTU rating of a waterboxer case set on fire
> would
> be :)
>
> Thanks,
> Ken Wilford
> John 3:16
> http://www.vanagain.com
> Phone: (856)-327-4936
> Fax: (856)-327-2242
>
>

________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com