Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:02:43 -0700
Reply-To: Sean Garrett <SEAN.GARRETT@ASU.EDU>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Sean Garrett <SEAN.GARRETT@ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: FW: Salt project
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello Mr.. Baroga:
You CANNOT possibly evaluate the damage this will do to roads and vehicles
in one season (year). If "limited" application is what your looking at then
it would take at least 3-5 yrs to evaluate its cost in road maintenance &
damage to vehicles (your populace).
Salt water in any form is one of the most corrosive substances on the
planet. Using it on your roads is a big mistake. I have a science background
in Geology and my years of experience maintaining vehicles in states where
it is applied. Put your evaluated experience aside and go start knocking on
doors in those states and looking at vehicles in driveways (while driving
the roads for potholes). Your really are missing the "hard" evidence of
damage inflicted on vehicles/roads if you do not.
Respectfully yours
Sean Garrett
-----Original Message-----
From: Baroga, Rico [mailto:BarogaR@WSDOT.WA.GOV]
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 10:41 AM
To: 'Sean Garrett'
Subject: RE: FW: Salt project
Mr. Garrett
Thanks for sharing your comments with me. One of the reasons this
evaluation is being implemented is because I have spent time in Maryland,
Minnesota, and Wisconsin learning about these issues (This is my brainchild
by the way). One thing I took away from my experience back there is that I
think we may be able to get some good results using magnitudes less salt
than what is typically used on the east coast and midwest. This limited
evaluation is being conducted because we're discussing a hypothesis.
Believe it or not, we will be evaluating all costs at the end of this
winter's project to see what concluisions can be drawn. If the costs of
corrosion, potholes, etc. outweigh any savings from using salt, then salt
will not be implemented on a long-term basis on Washington highways. There
will be no dumping of costs onto the populace. We're simply testing an idea
that has the potential of saving some taxpayer dollars and providing a good
Level of Service.
Rico Baroga
WSDOT
Office of Highway Maintenance
-----Original Message-----
From: Sean Garrett [mailto:SEAN.GARRETT@asu.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 1:54 PM
To: 'BarogaR@WSDOT.WA.GOV'
Subject: FW: FW: Salt project
Shelf this project, you have lived without salting for so long, you can live
without it now. I grew up and learned to drive in Ohio. Salt was applied
generously there. It trashes new cars in less than 4 yrs. Your populace's
cars will rust out in a matter of years. I don't care what NEW data you
have. Vehicles with anti corrosion protection will rust too. You will spend
enormous amounts of money on repairing potholes too. Who's ever brainchild
this is should be enlightened and speak to consumers who live in salted
areas. Go knock on some doors.
I hope the voters speak loud enough there and shut down this pilot project.
You may be saving money switching to salt but your adding a very large
expense to your populace. Upkeep of vehicles in these conditions is never
100% the saline water gets in tightest of spots and ruins your vehicle.
Sean Garrett
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian T. [ mailto:nobleman36@YAHOO.COM <mailto:nobleman36@YAHOO.COM>
]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 2:01 PM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Re: FW: Salt project
>
>
> Sir,
>
> Thank you for this information. I am including two of
> the lists I belong to in my reply. I suspect you may
> get some traffic from list members regarding their
> personal beliefs regarding road salting. The vehicles
> we chose to drive are older and the thought of putting
> them at risk is not acceptable to me.
>
> Regards,
> Brian Tipsword
> Salem, Or
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> --- "Baroga, Rico" <BarogaR@WSDOT.WA.GOV> wrote:
> > As promised, this is a follow-up to your e-mail
> > regarding the use of salt on
> > highways in Washington State. Due to relatively
> > high number of citizen
> > inquiries, I've developed a standard reply that
> > provides additional
> > information on the salt pilot project (see
> > enclosure).
> >
> > The concerns that you have expressed have been
> > amongst our concerns as we
> > have developed this coming winter's test of salt
> > use. As such, we have
> > developed a very cautious approach to this pilot
> > project that minimizes
> > potential adverse impacts yet still provides us with
> > meaningful scientific
> > and management data with which we can make
> > well-informed policy choices in
> > the future. Two years ago, I also thought that salt
> > use on roads equated to
> > my car turning into "Swiss Cheese." However, after
> > studying related
> > research documents, working with metallurgists and
> > corrosion engineers,
> > having extended discussion and debates with
> > transportation officials in
> > several east coast and midwest states, and learning
> > about state-of-the-art
> > snow and ice control methodologies, I'm not so sure
> > about this. The data
> > from this project will significantly add to the
> > current body of knowledge on
> > this topic so we can make the best decisions in the
> > future considering all
> > facts and costs; certainly including corrosion costs
> > and impacts in our
> > analysis.
> >
> > If you have any further questions, comments, or
> > would like additional
> > information regarding this matter, please contact me
> > via e-mail or by
> > telephone at (360) 705-7864.
> >
> > Rico Baroga
> > WSDOT Maintenance Office
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: MacDonald, Doug
> > Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 7:30 PM
> > To: 'Brian T.'
> > Subject: RE: Salt project
> >
> >
> > We appreciate your reply and your concern. I think
> > it is important for us
> > to be in touch about exactly what we are and are not
> > trying, and exactly how
> > we will evaluate the results of a program that is
> > definitely a "pilot."
> > Yours is not the only critical reply we have
> > received. In a few days I'll
> > be sure that you have a detailed reply that should
> > expand a bit on whatever
> > you read in the paper or heard on the radio. I
> > trust you will pass that
> > along, too, to the ski club, etc. We want you here!
> > We also want you safe!
> > By the way, as a pragmatic matter, if you come up
> > I-5 to ski in Washington,
> > you're not going to find much roadway salt, since
> > the pilot is limited to
> > I-90 in the eastern part of the state and SR 6 in SW
> > Washington. That is
> > not intended to diminish your concern about the
> > strategy. We'll be in
> > touch! We need snow, by the way, either to ski or
> > to de-ice!
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Brian T. [ mailto:bst@open.org <mailto:bst@open.org> ]
> > Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 1:17 AM
> > To: MacDonD@wsdot.wa.gov
> > Subject: Salt project
> >
> >
> > Sir,
> >
> > It is with great dismay that I was directed to an
> > article regarding the use
> > of salt as a deicer on your roadways. If this is
> > indeed the case you can
> > count on zero tourist revenue from my family and
> > everyone else I can pass
> > this article along to. If I wanted to turn my
> > vehicle into Swiss cheese I
> > would just go and park it in the surf.
> >
> > To be more direct salt is bad... not only for the
> > roadway and general
> > infrastructure, but to all motor vehicles and should
> > not be used. Your
> > assumption that vehicles are better able to
> > withstand this corrosive is
> > mistaken and I am certain that the people I know
> > won't allow their vehicular
> > investment to be undermined by this action. Who has
> > a spare thirty thousand
> > laying around to purchase a decent vehicle every
> > couple of years? Not me! I
> > am forwarding this article on to about a hundred
> > people I know in my car and
> > ski/alpine club for their dissemination. I'm
> > banking on the old adage, I
> > tell two friends and so on.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Brian S. Tipsword
> > Salem, Or
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > < http://access.wa.gov/ <http://access.wa.gov/> > Access Washington
News
> > < http://www.access.wa.gov/news/images/news.jpg
<http://www.access.wa.gov/news/images/news.jpg> >
> > < http://access.wa.gov/ <http://access.wa.gov/> > Access
Washington Home
> >
> < http://www.access.wa.gov/news/article.asp?name=n0211107.htm
<http://www.access.wa.gov/news/article.asp?name=n0211107.htm&awver=5>
&awver=5>
> > Text
> > Version < http://www.access.wa.gov/images/sp.gif
<http://www.access.wa.gov/images/sp.gif> >
> > < http://www.access.wa.gov/search/ <http://www.access.wa.gov/search/> >
Search
> > < http://www.access.wa.gov/images/sp.gif
<http://www.access.wa.gov/images/sp.gif> >
> > < http://www.access.wa.gov/siteinfo/
<http://www.access.wa.gov/siteinfo/> > Site
> > Information
> > < http://www.access.wa.gov/images/sp.gif
<http://www.access.wa.gov/images/sp.gif> >
> >
> < http://www.access.wa.gov/news/article.asp?name=n0211107.htm
<http://www.access.wa.gov/news/article.asp?name=n0211107.htm> #>
> > Customer
> > Support
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Washington State Department of
> > < http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/ <http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/> > Transportation
> >
> >
> > Date: November 20, 2002
> > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> > Contact: Rico Baroga, WSDOT Maintenance,
> > 360-705-7864 (Olympia)
> >
> >
> > Changing technologies allow WSDOT to look again at
> > salt
> >
> >
> > OLYMPIA -- Advancing highway maintenance
> > technologies, motor vehicle
> > manufacturing and bridge construction technologies
> > are allowing the
> > Washington State Department of Transportation
> > (WSDOT) to take a new look at
> > an old product for highway snow and ice control --
> > salt. This winter, WSDOT
> > will conduct a pilot project on two state highways
> > to analyze the effects of
> > salt both on roadway driving conditions and on
> > corrosion factors.
> >
> >
> > The salt applications pilot project will take place
> > at the following
> > locations:
> >
> >
> > * Interstate 90 between the Interstate 82
> > interchange (east of
> > Ellensburg) to the Columbia River Bridge at Vantage;
> >
> >
> > * I-90 between the Grant/Adams county line (east of
> > Moses Lake) to the
> > Lincoln/Spokane county line; and
> >
> > * State Route 6 between Chehalis and Raymond (salt
> > brine only)
> >
> > For approximately 15 years, WSDOT has relied
> > primarily on alternative
> > chemical de-icers to minimize snow and ice on state
> > highways. However, WSDOT
> > believes that now is the time conduct the pilot
> > project on salt for several
> > reasons:
> >
> > * For the last 20 years, automobile and truck
> > manufacturing industries
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
> > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/msword
> name=WSDOTSaltReply.doc
>
>
>
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