Date:         Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:48:13 -0600
Reply-To:     Chris Mills <scmills@TNTECH.EDU>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Chris Mills <scmills@TNTECH.EDU>
Subject:      Re: air cooled engine alternatives
In-Reply-To:  <20021212.174928.304.6.wilden1@juno.com>
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii

>I have owned both a 110hp 65 Corvair with dual carbs and a 66 Turbo
>Charged Corvair, they both had special may-pop engines that self
>destructed at about 6100 rpms.
>I was never impressed by Corvair Performance.
>They had the same cylinder head problems as VW air cooled .............
>dropped the seats or burnt the valves.

I'm halfway into a Corvair transplant. Let me tell you it can be big $$$.
To have the engine rebuilt is about the same cost as doing a rebuilt Type
IV. The initial cost of the engine and tranny may only be a few hundred (I
got 1.5 engines and a 4 speed tranny for $150 + gas and effort to remove,
etc.).

The kit (if you buy it new) if $650!!! I don't think the kit is worth but
$200. Just bent steel, some tubing, etc. I got a NOS kit for $150. Used
ones (rusty and dirty) can be had for half that but may lack crucial nit
bits which are easy to fabricate.

I still need to buy my hydraulic clutch and slave cylinders. It can be done
with a cable ala stock Baywindow VW van but I want hydraulic.

The instructions tell you that you have to cut the VW to make it fit but
you don't. You can trim the Corvair tin to make it fit the VW so at a later
date you could go back to VW power if you save everything you removed.
Don't cut the VW. Box and bag the removed parts so you or the next guy can
go back if you find the conversion is a flop.

Then there is that incidental list about a mile long - new mufflers, engine
mounts from an early baywindow, that alternator conversion so you don't run
a 40 year old generator, etc. etc. etc.

I'll have less than $600 in mine b/c I was patient and bought good deals.
My engine is good and doesn't require a rebuild - only new gaskets. It is a
50K mile engine or so.

Same problems as VW engine long term. You are taking a serious step
backwards in technology in some categories (carbs, exhaust, generator - all
things commonly improved upon). The engine is probably equal to the VW - it
will last 150K miles if treated right many, many people who have owned them
tell me. The heaters are more rudimentary than the Type IV or Type I
engines, carbs are very basic, and they run hot if you don't clean up the
head castings (1 hr work, $10 tool).

HOWEVER if you want to warm the engine over a bit they are prime material
for good things. Fuel injection is getting more common with some of the
folks. Engines run cooler, better mpg, better power, engines last longer.
There are about 6 different flavors of fuel injection people are using on
them. The stock twin carbs were a crummy compromise between cost and
performance. The 4 carb setup is better. Twin 3 barrel Webers (at $1500)
would be MUCH better. Fuel injection if bought from a salvage yard would be
a few hundred. Understand the stock carbs are okay but there is a few HP to
be gained with better carbs. A well tuned Corvair car can get upwards of 30
mpg. A Corvair powered VW Baywindow can see 20-23 mpg even with twice the
HP almost.

Another fun project is using Type IV VW 2.0 pistons and cylinders to yield
a 3.1 liter engine versus 2.7 liters. It is a machine in project.

Everyone that I have talked to that has owned a conversion had good things
to say about it save 1-2 people. Those people had oil leaks, minor problems
they could not solve (that everyone else has).

The rest of the folks said there was good reliability, good power (100 HP
vs. 67 HP), bus would cruise better on the highway, etc.

They came in a half dozen flavors - 80 HP, 95 HP, 110 HP, 140 HP, 180 HP
turbo. For pushing a van around you want the 95 HP. More torque, slightly
less HP, runs cooler, happy with driving air conditioning. 110 is fine too,
slightly more prone to pinging on cheap gas. The only difference are the
heads and carb jets. Revisions made to the heads can help things alot in
the pinging department. 140 HP is like playing Russian roulette. They have
fewer fins on the heads, worse MPG, run hotter. Some Corvair folk run them
in the Corvair pickups or vans though. the 180 HP engine is not suitable at
all. They have a very rudimentary turbo system which relies on restrictions
in the exhaust system to control boost. They also get hot FAST under load.
In a car you would be going too fast to be safe before you overheated but
you could overheat it fast in a heavy van in the hills under constant
boost. Some revisions have been made by some folks with the addition of a
modern turbo, wastegate, EFI and they have very nice engines with big $$$
in them.

I see it as raw material for something better. I plan to pursue some of the
upgrades I mentioned above but coupled with sway bars, 15" wheels, and
someday better brakes. Just something that is stable at 70 mph. I recently
drove a stock '78 on I-40 and I did not feel safe b/c my cruising speed at
60 mph was so much lower than the traffic - 75 or 80 mph.

I plan to clean up the heads, a bit of minor porting and polishing, mild
cam, better exhaust (mild), ignition, etc.

If you can do a swap like the Trans-vair I figure you've got the skills to
fix what you've got already. The stock VW engine is good, a bit small though.

Choices, choices.

I'll report back (if we all live long enough) to tell you what I think of
driving a Corvair powered VW when it's done.

I have a HUGE pile of information collected about these engines and the
conversion for anyone that would like to read more and make up their own mind.

No conversion is an easy one. The Corvair is probably the easiest requiring
only a weekend if all the parts are on hand. There is ALOT of urban legends
surrounding these cars and their engines - much of it poor. Most of it is
grounded in misunderstanding and ignorance. There are alot of very educated
Corvair owners which have solved about every short coming you've ever heard
about Corvairs. Most of the solutions are very cheap and very easy to
pursue. Corvairs require the same kind of specific care that our VW engines
do. Shortcuts will not last. Once you know the simple procedures (most very
much like the VW procedures) you can care for these engines quickly,
cheaply, and easily.

One example is the fan belt. Corvairs are famous for flipping their fan
belt off loosing their alternator function and cooling fan function at the
same time. Ignorant drivers continue on until the engine overheats. Just
like a Beetle the charging system idiot light is in on telling you there is
a problem but the ignorant driver doesn't notice or tells himself he'll
stop in the next town to see what is wrong.

The driver either cooks the engine cussing the design (when it was their
own ignorance that got them into trouble) or they get their brother-in-law
to reinstall it for them (or the local garage) and the belt gets tightened
just like the belt on the Ford 351 p/u engine sitting out back. Two days
later it happens again. Of course the bad news travels 3 times faster and 3
times further than the good. The truth is that they don't know what the
hell they are doing.

The real procedure is to install a preferred belt commonly found at most
FLAPS (NAPA, Auto Zone) that costs the same as the other belts and tighten
it until the alternator fan and pulley and be rotated with finger pressure
only. When the engine gets hot and expands the belt tightens up to just the
right amount. If you put it on tight when the engine is cold, then when the
engine is hot it is too tight and ready to flip off as the driver marches
through the gears. Simple but you've got to know this.

There are three big Internet e-mail lists: Fastvair at Yahoo for racing,
VV-talk for general chat, and Virtualvairs for Corvair general and
technical conversation and they are located at  http://www.corvair.org/ .

Other excellent websites are:

http://www.corvair.com

http://corvairkid.com/

http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/corvair/

In addition to this I have about 500 MB of stuff you can download and read
- hundreds of saved e-mails, pics and such.

Parts are still easy to be found, relatively cheaply b/c the general public
has not 'discovered' these cars again - YET. There are about 5 or 6 Corvair
vendors that can supply ANYTHING - alot of NOS parts around too.

A nice 1965 driver convertible with a dozen options or so can be bought for
about $6000. There are a few 5,000 mile Corvairs being found each year
hidden in basements or garages on jackstands and they are selling for $15K,
one went up for sale this week with less than a hundred miles - owner
bought it and put it on jacks ASAP to preserve back in 196~?

  Some cars can still be found with low mileage (like my engine) b/c people
got frustrated with little things like oil leaks that contaminated the
heaters in the winter. This was caused by the pushrod tube seals being made
at GM out of a rubber that wasn't suitable for the job. Viton has replaced
rubber as the material of choice and most engines are easy to make leak
free. Other folks never figured out how to adjust the fanbelt and parked
the cars out of frustration.

Good luck everybody.



Chris M. <"Busbodger" of "TEAM SLOWPOKE">
Cookeville, Tennessee

ICQ# 5944649
scm9985@tntech.edu

'78 VW Westfalia (67 HP -> that is...67 Hamster Power)
'65 Beetle - Type IV powered
'99 CR-V AWD station wagon
'81 CB900 Custom moto-chickle
2.5 Corvair engines for my Trans-vair Conversion