Date:         Fri, 13 Dec 2002 14:01:50 -0500
Reply-To:     Marc Perdue <marcperdue@ADELPHIA.NET>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Marc Perdue <marcperdue@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Thanks RE: Photo ticket at stop lights
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Normally I would agree on this; if you ran the "RED" light, pay the ticket.
However, there are some other issues that surround the use of photo ticketing
equipment that make me say "FIGHT IT!!!"  The rationale behind the installation
of those systems, or at least the argument they use when trying to sell them to
a locale, is the number of accidents that are caused at intersections by
red-light runners would be reduced significantly by installing the photo
ticketing systems.  Seems reasonable enough on the surface.  The problem is that
the companies that supply the systems base their contracts on the amount of
revenue that the ticketers generate.  Localities pay stiff penalties, either
directly or indirectly, if those revenue streams aren't met.  If the equipment
doesn't generate enough revenue, the localities reduce the time that the light
is yellow, usually from about 5 seconds to 3 seconds.  In addition, the sensor
that they use to trigger the camera is often positioned BEFORE the wide white
strip leading into the intersection.  Here in Virginia, the police have told me
that the law actually enables them to ticket you if you cross that line when the
light is yellow.  In practice, most localities only ticket you if you cross that
line when the light is red.  NOT the case if the sensor is BEFORE the white
line.

It gets better.  The IIHS has done studies that supposedly show that the
presence of these photo ticketers has reduced the number of collisions at
intersections.  NOT TRUE!!!  What is actually happening is the number of
rear-end collisions at these intersections has increased dramatically as people
come screeching to a halt trying not to get ticketed.  I don't recall the stats
on whether there has been a change in the number of fatal collisions or not.  If
you're interested in more information on this, check back issues of Car and
Driver for Csaba Csere's insightful reporting on the topic or contact Rep. Dick
Armey, who is highly upset about the photo ticketers and is gathering any and
all information he can to change the situation.

If you're feeling ambitious, find out who supplies the ticketers and what the
timing is on them.  See if you can find out if there's a contract in place that
pegs Pheonix's contract payments to revenue generated by the ticketers. See if
you can find accident statistics for that intersection before and after the
installation of the ticketers.  You'll probably find that you have one helluva
case.

Good luck with your day in court,
Marc Perdue

Robert Steven Fish wrote:

> I have one simple question for you.....
>
> Did you go through the yellow (or red) light?
>
> If the answer is yes, then pay your ticket, learn your lesson, admit that
> you made a mistake, stop trying to pretend that the entire government is
> corrupt, and spying on you, and out to cash in on your innocent and harmless
> actions.
>
> There is a reason why they install those cameras which take photos of the
> cars who run yellow (or red).  The reason is that many innocent men, women,
> and children are killed each year by folks who are in a hurry, and speed up
> at the yellow. There is a trend towards ever increasingly aggresive driving
> and road rage in the States... while the crime rate is also so high, that
> hte police force is busy 24-7 catching the rapists, murders, and high school
> kids killing their teachers.  There simply are not enough resources for a 30
> minute personal ticket giving ceremony for running a light.
>
> Here we have radar boxes both in the sities and on the autobahns and when
> you get a ticket, you pay it, and people do not really freak.  We are not
> living in a totalitarian, nor "Orwellian" society here either... it's just
> that Europeans tend to be a tad more responsible for their actions than
> perhaps residents of some other countries.
>
> Now, having said all that.... if you did not run the yellow,  then fight it.
>
> Good Luck with whichever you choose to do!
>
> RSF
>
> PS.  Most lights these days are controlled by traffic, and weight or other
> sensors... so your timing it by using the clock may not do much good.