Date:         Fri, 13 Dec 2002 21:55:00 -0700
Reply-To:     Bill N <freeholder@STARBAND.NET>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Bill N <freeholder@STARBAND.NET>
Subject:      Re: Thanks RE: Photo ticket at stop lights
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I apologize in advance for turning on the flames, but I can't let this drivel pass without
comment.  Besides, it is still Friday here in Arizona.

First, the crime rate has been dropping steadily in the USA for 20 years now, in every
category.  Don't believe everything you see on television and in the movies.  That's fiction.
A quick Internet search will bring up the annual FBI crime report so you can see for yourself.
In 2001 the murder rate was very slightly higher than the precious year, but only because of
the 9/11 terrorist attacks that killed 3,000.  That's the only year recently it didn't go down.
All the other categories of violent crime, such as rape, armed robbery, etc. still went down
that year.

Second, in the year of the Columbine shootings, the total number of people killed in schools
actually went down.  Press coverage might have given you a different impression.

Third, in the same 20 year period, violent crime has been rising in most European countries.
For example, street crime in Paris is out of control.

Fourth, here in Arizona about 100,000 people have a permit that allows them to carry a handgun
concealed.  (It has always been legal in Arizona to just wear a handgun visible on your hip.)
In the eight years that these permits have been available, there have been no permit holders
arrested for crimes using these handguns.  None.

Fifth, I find people on the roads here to be just as polite and helpful as ever, and I drive
quite a lot in the course of my work.  The drivers are much less polite and much more agressive
in several European countries.

So, to sum up, I object to your basic premises.  Crime is not out of control here.  Many places
in Europe have worse crime problems than similar sized cities here in the USA.  US citizens are
not, on the average, less responsible than Europeans.  If we choose to complain more about
automatic tickets, maybe it's because we value our personal freedoms more.  That attitude has
allowed us to keep the world's oldest democracy running and still free.  In fact, we are
probably the longest-standing government of any kind anywhere in the world.  I can't think of
another government in existence today that has existed in its current form for more than 200
years.  I'm sure if I missed any, someone will point them out.

Sorry for the rant, but I get tired of being abused just for being an American.

Bill in Arizona


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Steven Fish" <fish@SALZBURG.CO.AT>

> at the yellow. There is a trend towards ever increasingly aggresive driving
> and road rage in the States... while the crime rate is also so high, that
> hte police force is busy 24-7 catching the rapists, murders, and high school
> kids killing their teachers.  There simply are not enough resources for a 30
> minute personal ticket giving ceremony for running a light.
>
> Here we have radar boxes both in the sities and on the autobahns and when
> you get a ticket, you pay it, and people do not really freak.  We are not
> living in a totalitarian, nor "Orwellian" society here either... it's just
> that Europeans tend to be a tad more responsible for their actions than
> perhaps residents of some other countries.