Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 22:03:20 -0800
Reply-To: "Loren A. Busch" <lbusch@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: "Loren A. Busch" <lbusch@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Photo ticket at stop lights
In-Reply-To: <200212142101.18nqUgky3NZFlr0@killdeer>
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I guess I'll have to jump in on this thread on yellow/red/green lights.
The following info is based on my experience with a 'ran the red' ticket
I fought and won about 20 years ago. Other jurisdictions may be
different, my problem was in Seattle.
1. The ticket is normally for 'Entering the intersection on the red
light', no on the yellow light. In other words, the judge presumes that
the yellow is a warning that the light will change to red and you had
time enough to stop if you were traveling the speed limit.
2. The duration of the yellow light is not set by statute, but
according to the traffic engineers is usually set at one second per ten
miles an hour of the speed limit: 25mph = 2.5 secs, 30 mph = 3 seconds,
etc.
3. The traffic engineers, and a knowledgeable judge, are familiar with
the area as you approach an intersection that is called the 'dilemma
zone'. That is the area that a driver traveling the speed limit must
make a go-no-go decision when the light turns yellow. If the driver
slams on the brakes he may end up stopping into the intersection or get
rear ended. If the driver continues, the light might turn red as he
enters the intersection, and will probably still be in the intersection
when the light turns red even though he did not 'enter the intersection
on the red light'.
4. In my case I was caught in the dilemma zone on wet pavement and
chose to go through the intersection. Both myself and the cop watched
the cycling of the light and agreed that the yellow seemed very short,
about 1.5 seconds. I asked for a court date, contacted the engineering
department. They checked the light and found it was not adjusted to
their normal standards. They even provided me a letter stating that.
When I got to court the cop very honestly testified, when asked by me,
that the yellow seemed shorter than normal. With that and the letter
from engineering, the judge dismissed.
Another point: The person that started this thread mentioned that it
would cost him more if he went to court and lost than if he just paid
the fine. Many jurisdictions seem to get away with this, but it is flat
illegal, long standing US Supreme Court decisions on this: You cannot
put someone in additional jeopardy because he asks for a 'day in court'.
Many jurisdictions try to get around this by assessing 'court costs' if
you ask for a court date and lose. This one takes a good attorney to
beat, but some judges will listen If the losing defendant asks why he is
being further punished for asking to be heard in court. A city also
cannot force you to 'post bond' in order to get a court date on a
traffic ticket (Seattle case in the 1960's or 1970's, pursued all the
way to the US Supreme Court and won by a lawyer now a member of the
Washington State Supreme Court. It was his own ticket)
There is one way to reform the 'chipee' ticket problems that exist in
virtually all jurisdictions: Ask for a court date on EVERY ONE!
Parking tickets and all! If we all did this in every jurisdiction
around the US for one month, the courts would be backlogged for years
and the revenue flow that the 'city fathers' so depend on would drop to
a trickle.
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