Date:         Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:12:00 -0700
Reply-To:     Bill N <freeholder@STARBAND.NET>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Bill N <freeholder@STARBAND.NET>
Subject:      Re: A WARNING!!! (Was: Cleaning the water tank!?)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I notice you preface this by stating you have no specialist knowledge of this subject.  While I
appreciate your concern, your advice could get people sick.

First, there is not a problem with home use of chlorine bleach causing production of dioxin.  I
quote below from an FDA site"

"Dioxin is an industrial by-product that is produced a number of ways. Dioxin is not produced
by manufacturing sodium hypochlorite bleach, nor by using it in the home. To form it you'd need
to introduce acidic solutions, concentrated chlorine gas, temperatures in excess of boiling or
organic molecules such as those found in the cell walls of wood and paper."

Chlorine can produce dioxin when it is being used to bleach paper pulp in paper mills, but will
not do so in home use.  It is a very safe disinfectant that is used not only in water supplies,
but also in almost every swimming pool and in many hot tubs, although I prefer bromine for hot
tubs.

Vinegar is not a general disinfectant.  It is an excellent cleaner for many applications,
including cleaning the corrosion from copper brewing parts, and will keep many kinds of
bacteria from growing, but it does this simply because of the PH.  Some bacteria don't like
acid conditions.  Others (for example: acetobacteria) love these conditions and grow very well
in vinegar.

Keep in mind that the bacteria that cause food poisoning live very well in your stomach, which
is a very acidic environment.  Don't count on vinegar to kill these.

Vinegar is used in food preservation (pickles, for example) but is only used in conjunction
with heat.  Any acid food product does as well as vinegar in this regard.  That's why when you
can food at home, pickles and tomatos can be processed in a water bath canner, while non-acid
foods must be processed in a pressure canner to attain higher temps.

Now, the fact is that one of the most effective things we can do to keep our water systems in
our Westys safe is to simply drain the tank when we aren't using it.  Anything else we do is
just extra protection.  If you want to use vinegar, fine, but don't think you are disinfecting
anything.  It will get the scale out, though.  Many dishwashing liquids do have a germicidal in
them, so they could be effective, if you rinse them out well enough afterward.  If you use
bleach, don't worry about it.  It won't hurt anything.  I will say you don't need to use nearly
as much as many are saying.  1/4 cup is more than ample.

BTW, my wife and I do have substantial "specialist knowledge" in this area.

Bill


----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Polson" <acpolson@HOTMAIL.COM>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 5:43 AM
Subject: A WARNING!!! (Was: Cleaning the water tank!?)


>
> Hi Dave,
>
> I am not speaking from a basis of any specialist knowledge, but I am
> dismayed to see several people, including yourself, recommending
> Chlorine-based bleach as though it were intrinsically safe.
>
> In fact Chlorine-based bleach generates some of the world's most dangerous
> chemicals, both in its manufacture and use.  These chemicals are called
> Dioxins, and they pose a massive threat to human health and to the global
> ecosystem as a whole.  There are strong links between Dioxins and cancer and
> birth defects.  At Seveso, Italy, they were the cause of one of Europe's
> most massive ever public health disasters.
>
>
> I realise that European and American approaches to the environment are very
> different, and that advice on hazardous chemicals may be less easily
> available on your (western) side of the pond.  However, the principles of
> chemistry are the same, and no-one who knows about Dioxins would risk their
> production in a potable water tank.  Of all places, surely this is one where
> Chlorine-based bleach must be avoided.
>
> I would forget the Chlorine-based bleach and go for a good scrub with
> detergent followed by sterilisation with vinegar.  (Thanks Stan!)