Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:49:38 -0800
Reply-To: Robert Keezer <warmerwagen@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Robert Keezer <warmerwagen@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: A WARNING!!! (Was: Cleaning the water tank!?)(long)
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Dave, all.
Dioxins can only occur by burning of solids, both industrial and natural. A
volcanos and forest fires alike produce them. So do certain industries.
Chlorine Dioxide, not to be confused with bleach, has been used in Europe
and the US for over 50 years for municipal water purification.
Chlorine Dioxide is the not the same as bleach. A product for RV water
supply tanks by the brand name Purogene has more info on this.
There is no substitute for chlorine in the water supply. Environmental
researchers admit this.
As this relates to our Vanagon campers,
we are talking primarily about disenfecting the hardware(tank, lines, pump,
faucet). We aren't using bleach to treat our tank supply, as can be done in
an emergency when you have an unsafe water supply, (like a mudpuddle , as
GI's have to add a couple drops to a five gallon can , etc, in an emergency)
Bleach isn't able to kill Giardia (beaver fever) bacteria, and a few others
in a dilution in order to make it safe to drink.
Ultraviolet light is being used in some water departments to kill these
bacteria resistant to chlorine.
Reverse osmosis filters and and distillers and others are able to totally
purify water.
But we aren't talking about purifiying water, but disinfecting the water
tank in your VW camper.
The original question is how to clean the Westfalia water tank?
Some helpful info I found: dishwashing soap. This will clean the dirt etc
out. Then rinse.
If you are concerned that the water tank and lines are contaminated with
bacteria, the bleach/water solution mentioned earlier left in for up to 5
hours will disinfect.
The bleach does not contain dioxins. You would have to "burn" the water to
make them.
But clorine is poisonous, so you want to make sure no one can drink it while
you are disinfecting the tank.
When you drain the tank, dispose of in a manner that won't wash into storm
drains or be drank by pets.
After the tank is rinsed and filled with water, the addition of vinegar will
neutralize the chlorine. Now you are left with a vinegar taste in the water-
drain the tank - then neutralize the vinegar residue by adding some baking
soda to the tank then refilling with fresh water.
Drain this and refill with fresh water.
That's a lot of draining and filling- I have been doing this for 20 years.
Everything I stated can be backed up by sources of information on the web .
This is an important topic and something we should all concern ourselves
with .
Since we travel the country in our campers, the water we put in our tanks
may not be as pure as we think jsut becuse it comes out of a tank.
This discussion has got me thinking more seriously about our Westy watwer
supply and I think I'll look into using Purogene or something similar. One
half -ounce treats thiry gallons-it can be added every time you fill the
tank.
I installed a activated charcoal water filter permanently in my Westfalia a
few years ago. it has a replaceable charcoal filter that makes water taste
better. For about 10 dollars, I can buy a replacement filter that removes
all bacteria including the Giardia.
<<Even when disinfecting the
>drains, it
>is strongly recommended that only small quantities should be used and for a
>maximum of 20 minutes, after which dioxin production begins to accelerate.
Nothing I have read by the various institutes claim that dioxins are
produced in water. Bleach mixed with water does'nt equal dioxins.
The researchers and scientists I have read do say it is the clorinated
solids that are the culprit when burned- waste incinerators that burn
garbage rather than put in landfills are the biggest producers of dioxins.
The precipitate back to earth and get in the soil whee they are absorbed by
plants and animals. 80 % of dioxins are found in the food chain ingested by
humans.
Dioxins aren't produced in your water tank with the presence of chlorine
period.
I can e-mail you my info sources at your request-
I think I'll go out and clean my tanks now-
Robert
1982 Westfalia
Robert
>
>Hi Dave,
>
>I am not speaking from a basis of any specialist knowledge, but I am
>dismayed to see several people, including yourself, recommending
>Chlorine-based bleach as though it were intrinsically safe.
>
>In fact Chlorine-based bleach generates some of the world's most dangerous
>chemicals, both in its manufacture and use. These chemicals are called
>Dioxins, and they pose a massive threat to human health and to the global
>ecosystem as a whole. There are strong links between Dioxins and cancer
>and
>birth defects. At Seveso, Italy, they were the cause of one of Europe's
>most massive ever public health disasters.
>
>Throughout Europe, the unequivocal advice is that Chlorine-based bleach
>should be used sparingly if at all. Even when disinfecting the drains, it
>is strongly recommended that only small quantities should be used and for a
>maximum of 20 minutes, after which dioxin production begins to accelerate.
>
>Surely there are serious implications to using any but the most sparing
>quantity of bleach for the shortest possible time in a potable water tank.
>It's no good saying that public water supplies include Chlorine-based
>bleach, because their concentrations are orders of magnitude lower than we
>would be likely to use. Indeed, many drinking water suppliers are using
>ultra-violet light to disinfect water, precisely because of the high risk
>to
>public health that is posed by Dioxins.
>
>It must be far safer to carry out hand cleaning of a potable water tank
>using a detergent, followed by disinfecting with vinegar (thanks to Stan
>Wilder for suggesting this). Vinegar carries near-zero long term health
>risks, which is why it is used in the food industry as a long term
>preservative.
>
>Another alternative is bleach that's based on Peroxide. This is widely
>sold
>in Europe as a more eco-friendly alternative to Chlorine-based bleach. It
>disinfects just as well as Chlorine-based bleach, but it produces virtually
>no dioxins.
>
>I realise that European and American approaches to the environment are very
>different, and that advice on hazardous chemicals may be less easily
>available on your (western) side of the pond. However, the principles of
>chemistry are the same, and no-one who knows about Dioxins would risk their
>production in a potable water tank. Of all places, surely this is one
>where
>Chlorine-based bleach must be avoided.
>
>I would forget the Chlorine-based bleach and go for a good scrub with
>detergent followed by sterilisation with vinegar. (Thanks Stan!)
>
>Best regards,
>
>Tony
>
>('84 Vanagon in the UK)
>
>
>
>------------ Original Message ---------------
>
>Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 18:04:40 -0500
>From: David Brodbeck <gull@CYBERSPACE.ORG>
>Subject: Re: Cleaning the water tank!?
>
>On Sun, 29 Dec 2002, Jason Weisberger wrote:
>
>>Bleach seems to not be in keeping with "potable" - are you suggesting
>not
>>use the internal water tank for drinking/cooking water on camping
>trips?
>
>Well, some people don't, but I have. Don't worry about the bleach -- as
>long as you use chlorine bleach, it's the same basic chemical used in
>city water systems. Just rinse thoroughly to get rid of the chlorine
>taste and smell, and you'll be fine. If the tank is slimey or has
>visible
>growth inside, you should take out the plug on top and scrub it first,
>since chlorine can't disinfect if there's dirt in the way.
>
>Incidentally, when storing the van between trips I like to take out the
>big plastic plug on top of the tank, lay a clean rag over the hole, then
>snug the plug down on top of the rag. I figure this will allow enough
>air
>in to keep condensation from forming in the tank. If it stays dry,
>nasties can't grow in it. ;)
>
>David M. Brodbeck (N8SRE)
>
>---------------------------------------------
>
>
>
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Robert
1982 Westfalia 1987 Wolfsburg
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