Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:27:14 -0500
Reply-To: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan@MAIL.HOUSE.GOV>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: "Forhan, Thomas" <Thomas.Forhan@MAIL.HOUSE.GOV>
Subject: Re: [Syncro] Re: 16" Trailing Arms / BIG 15" Tires
Derek has the facts, god bless him! But before going down this road, I want
to make a point about Chris' original question.
He asked about the trailing arm limitations on tire size, and that is what
we are discussing.
However, as you move up in tire size on a stock syncro, the first real wall
you have to climb is gearing. Without changing at least the ring and pinion
sets, or going a step further like some of us have and also regearing the
transmission, about the maximum diameter tire you can pull with stock
gearing is around 26.5" or 27". Anything larger than that, and you need to
get into gearing.
You can just do a 6.17 r+p swap, which will be great in granny gear, but you
will significantly reduce your speed in other gears of course. Thats why
some modified syncro's get towed or trucked to off road sites.
Tom F.
-----Original Message-----
From: Derek Drew [mailto:derekdrew@rcn.com]
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 10:51 AM
To: Syncro@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Syncro] Re: 16" Trailing Arms / BIG 15" Tires
I can get the 16" trailing arms through a special arrangement that make them
less expensive than other sourcing alternatives I know about, and as far as
I know I have sold more of these here in North America than other list
vendors. .
While I sell and ship them to other listers, and I have installed a pair
myself, they do not add all that much capacity for the price, which is, at
last check, about $1,350 at an exchange rate that was current a while back
but I don't know the current price. The extra capacity is something less
than an inch, I think, however. As I recall it was on the order of only 2cm
extra or something like 3/4". And as John Wessels points out, there is an
limit to how big a tire you want to put on because even with 6.17 final
drive gears the G gear is insufficiently low. However, the problem with the
G gear can be negated to some extent by switching to diesel TDI motor or
other higher torque motors.
But the real answer is basically the 16" trailing arms enable tire sizes of
245/75/16 or 215/85/16, which are about 1" larger in diameter than the
30x9.50/15s and raise the vehicle about 1/2 inch further off the ground. Is
$1,350 worth 1/2"? For me it was, but I use my syncro off road a lot. Not
to mention a higher likelihood of using chains or cable chains with the 16"
arms.
Also, be advised that Karl Mullendore (Westy Ventures) is planning to make
some custom made equivalents to the OEM trailing arms and I am sure he will
offer these to the list and at less price than the OEM trailing arms. Since
Karl is a man of uncommon talents, to put it mildly, these look very
promising. Also, he is an expert welder and very creative.
In general, in Europe much attention has been made of custom made 16"
trailing arm equivalents, but there is concern about the structural
integrity of such a critical suspension component, which in automotive
engineering world "should never be welded", with the possibility of highway
accidents, fatalities, not to mention liability issues. Accordingly, I am
not aware of anyone who has actually fabricated 16" trailing arm equivalents
that have reached acceptance in Europe and the VW OEMs 16s still rule the
day there. For the record, interestingly, the VW OEMs are indeed welded, but
I have been examining them further recently and noticed that: a) the welding
jobs are among the highest quality of work that I have seen, and b) there
are extra internal structural supports that VW fabricated and installed
inside the trailing arms that are not included on 14" trailing arms. I
actually tracked down the OEM for these and they indicated that they could
make another run of them if I were to place a minimum order of some
outlandish number of units.
Note that Wessels indicated that the mount 30x9.50/15s the stock 14" rear
trailing arms may need to be cut and welded along the inner seam so even
30x9.50/15 stresses the limit of our vans in stock North American
configuration. Since I live here in DC, I had this welding done by a local
shop with my 16" trailing arms (just to get the maximum clearance I possibly
could) but had to take the arms back to that shop for a reweld because I
found pinholes in the welds. If I lived in California and wanted to mount
that size tire, I would go to Wessels to have that work done.
A final note on the trailing arms is that you even look at them, let alone
buy new ones or modify the ones you have, you should rustproof them with a
wax based rustproofing compound such as Waxoyl and/or possibly some of the
excellent Wurth products as indicated in the manual. As always, in any rust
proofing on a Vanagon, avoid any "rubberized" rustproofing compound which
sets into place a time bomb for the destruction of your van by the cracking
that this rubber material exhibits after a few years of aging, and
consequent holding of moisture against the body. In some british UK car
circles, it is widely felt that you must choose between the slow death
non-rustproofing method of automotive ownership, or the rustproofing method
which results in no rusting for a period of, perhaps 8 years, followed by
sudden violent death of the vehicle at that point when the rubber dries out
and cracks. Some avoid the sudden death syndrome by going under the vehicle
with a scraper for about 175 hours at the 8 year mark.
The material in this email is a concise answer to your question, but readers
interested in large tire issues may benefit from reading additional posts
from me in the archives of the Syncro lists regarding gearing and other
related matters. There are links below to many, but not all, of those posts
in a special VW signature file that I prepared and that is appended to this
email.
At 10:01 AM 1/17/2003 -0500, you wrote:
I understand to mount REALLY big tires on your syncro you
need to upgrade rear trailing arms to 16" type. Where do I
get some? How much are they? Anyone have part numbers?
Also, assuming one makes this upgrade and goes to syncro.org
springs or the fastforward lift kit, how big of a 15" tire
can you get back there?
It seems like 30x9.50/15 is as big as you can go without
doing all of the above (assuming you don't care about
carrying the spare in the stock location) is this true?
Thanks,
Chris
________________________________________________________
Derek Drew Washington, DC (& NYC)
derekdrew@rcn.com Phone 202-966-7907
Email me for viscous coupling s (Cell 703-408-1532)
'90 Syncro Westfalia...
...seen off-road at
http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/Syncro_Madness_Area.htm
<http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/Syncro_Madness_Area.htm>
Note: most valuable Vanagon sites on the planet (for owners) are:
http://gerry.vanagon.com/cgi-bin/wa.exe?S1=vanagon
<http://gerry.vanagon.com/cgi-bin/wa.exe?S1=vanagon>
http://gerry.vanagon.com/files/ <http://gerry.vanagon.com/files/>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro>
http://www.vanagon.com <http://www.vanagon.com/>
http://www.syncro.org <http://www.syncro.org/>
Many of my Syncro list postings consolidated
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/messagesearch?query=212-580-6486
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/messagesearch?query=212-580-6486>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/messagesearch?query=202-966-7907
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/messagesearch?query=202-966-7907>
My refrigerator article:
http://www.vanagon.com/info/articles/Refrigerator/Reefer_Madness.htm
<http://www.vanagon.com/info/articles/Refrigerator/Reefer_Madness.htm>
All About 16" Wheels And The CV-900.htm
http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/vanagon/All_About_16-Wheels_And_The_CV_900.ht
m
<http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/vanagon/All_About_16-Wheels_And_The_CV_900.h
tm>
All About Viscous Couplings
http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/vanagon/viscous_couplings_vanagon_syncro.htm
<http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/vanagon/viscous_couplings_vanagon_syncro.htm
>
How To Live With Heavy List Volume--Mail Filters
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/message/7403
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/message/7403>
My article that shows how to deal with insurance companies:
http://gerry.vanagon.com/files/auto-insurance-madness.html
<http://gerry.vanagon.com/files/auto-insurance-madness.html>
To read some material about how to add a front differential lock to your
syncro
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/message/13105
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/message/13105>
To view Wolfgang's incredibly informative wheel article
http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/fitbigtiresonvanagon.htm
<http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/fitbigtiresonvanagon.htm>
To view Tim Smith's incredibly useful gearing calculator
http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/syncrotireandgearratios.xls
<http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/syncrotireandgearratios.xls>
To view two articles about how to think about improving your gears at
transmission rebuild time
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/message/7207
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/message/7207>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/message/7221
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/message/7221>
To view an overview article about choices in larger sized tires see
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/message/11535
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/message/11535>
To view some 16" Trailing Arms that enable much larger tires see
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/syncrolist/files/Wheels%2C%20Tires%20%26%20Gea
ring/Wheel%20%26%20Tire%20Photos/16_Inch_Trailing_Arm.jpg
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/syncrolist/files/Wheels,%20Tires%20%26%20Gear
ing/Wheel%20%26%20Tire%20Photos/16_Inch_Trailing_Arm.jpg>
My article about belt protectors and CV joint protectors
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/message/6112
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Syncro/message/6112>
SYNCRO OWNERS WHO DRIVE OFF THE ROAD:
You only get to change your ring and pinions once every 10 years
because that's how long the average syncro transmission goes before
its next rebuild. If you want bigger tires and more ground clearance
start planning your higher number ring and pinion sets right now so
you
can take advantage of your next trans rebuild.
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