Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 11:14:54 -0600
Reply-To: John Rodgers <j_rodgers@CHARTER.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: John Rodgers <j_rodgers@CHARTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Dealer repair disaster '89 Westfalia
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Hi Sally,
Sorry to hear of your troubles over your van.
You have gotten some good advice from the membership on this list. I
just want to add that this is one of those situations where you want to
take it to the mat. Do not back off the pressure the least little bit.
The dealership is responsible for the situation regards the condition of
your van, engine and upholstery, and must make adequate compensation.
Every effort will be made to get around you on this, but hold their feet
to the fire. There will be an effort to start chipping away at the
degree financial responsibility to you, by denials, offers, etc. But do
not yield. I'm pretty certain that you have them over a barrel.
Consider, too, that not only has there been damage to your vehicle,
there has also been loss of its use, expense in having to deal with all
this .... loss of your time spent in dealing with it (lost wages due to
loss time on the job, maybe), rental car expense possibley, long
distance phone calls, possibly attorney fees,, stress --- is there a
monetary value to stress caused by all this.....you bet... and a good
attorney will help you define it. Doctors fees .......prescriptions
needed to releive the stress......??? interesting possibilities, yes?
Not suggesting a lack of veracity, just showing there are may possible
additional expenses that could be incurred that no one has thought of.
You also should get prices for a Tiico engine installation, and also a
newly rebuilt Boston Bob engine and the installation charges for same so
you have some comparison with what the alternatives would have been,
could have been, to what you got from the dealer.
I learned over time as a Vanagon owner, that I needed to know a lot
about my vehicle, as a matter of self protection from those mechanics
and dealers who were not knowlegeable or didn't care about me and my
van. So I read, studied, looked, and watdched others when work was to be
done on my van. I now know enough that when I do have occassion to take
my van to a repair place, I know when the mechanic or dealer knows what
he is talking about, or whether he is qualified to wod the work, or
whether he is smart enough and has the right attitude to solve a problem
he may not have experience on or know about. There are many good,
diligent mechanics who have never worked on a Vanagon, but with some
coaching from me, plus my books on the van, can and do good work, with
me looking over their shoulder. A good general mechanic knows key points
that are troublesome on any vehicle, and coolant hoses and fuel lines
are some of those points. The specific knowledge may not be there, but
the general knowledge is sufficient to make him look into it as a matter
of good mechanical practice.
I used to be an aircraft mechanic, and everytime the cowling was off of
an engine, no matter what the reason was, all the fuel lines, oil lines,
hydraulic lines, vacuum line, etc, got a look see for wear, looseness,
general condition. So did all the electrical wiring. It was routine.
Good vehicle maintenance is the same.
If you wish to remain a Van owner, you will oviously need to develop an
in depth knowledge of the vehicle, so you can more adequately direct
maintenance if nothing else. The vanagon is a unique machine, and to get
the best from it, and long trouble free service, you must know it's
indiosyncracies. Do that, and you will have years of enjoyable motoring
in your van. My van is my daily driver, and I enjoy it much. But one of
my reall joys in life is when I'm in my van, have just cleared the city
limits, and have put the pedal to the metal and there is an open road
ahead. Especially when I am headed west. Especially when I am reasonably
sure that all is in good condition mechanically and my journey will be
trouble free.
Hope this all works out well for you. I know how badly I hate to be
ripped off.
Regards,
John Rodgers
88 GL Driver
Strawn wrote:
>Hello all,
> I am new to this listserve, have searched the archives many times and
>owe lots of people thank you's for the info there ... so, thank you!
> Have a repair story (long, I do apologize ahead of time, and I'll try to
>make short as possible) I could use some help with - not wanting to be
>unreasonable but needing advice as to what I should/shouldn't do/pursue...
> 1989 Vanagon Westfalia camper - I'm the original owner, and I've treated
>it well.
> My longtime regular mechanic fell ill and retired. Very sad ... and it
>gets sadder...
> Developed sudden coolant leak - coolant on driveway, looked like heads
>from location, searched the archives and found out about head problems,
>20/20 hindsight, too little/too late, all that good stuff...
> (Had minor leak 8/01, new water pump installed which we'll never know if
>I really needed - new mechanic, no longer my mechanic, another story ...
>still leaking though less, returned to same mechanic, 2 bottles of StopLeak
>later, no more leak until 2/03)
> 2/18/03-Went to new mechanic recommended highly by many folks, he said
>heads and he didn't do those, recommended dealer and specific mechanic
>there, and off I went for "Check, advise coolant leak".
> 2/19-Service advisor said needed both heads and gaskets, quoted $2326+tx
>(I'm in SoCal, so prices will probably seem exorbitant in the Real World)-I
>ok'd.
> 2/27- Service advisor said also needed 4 injectors, studs,
>AC/PS/Alternator belts ($1132) - I (whimpering) ok'd and said "You have it
>torn down, I want it fixed up right, whatever it needs, just let me know".
> 3/17 (yes, that would be one month later, after much calling on my part
>and lots of "maybe in a couple of days" and 2 service advisors later...) - I
>pick up the van and fight over the $200 in unapproved charges and get it
>home for $3661 including our exorbitant 7.75% SoCal sales tax. Tech notes
>say: Left and right cylinder heads over heated, replaced left and right
>cylinder heads and gaskets, replaced leaking coolant flanges, O rings,
>sealant, replaced flange adapter and refilled coolant. Replaced studs, 4
>injectors, inner and outer seals and fuel hose. Replaced A/C belt, Power
>steering belt, alternator belt.
> 3/18-4/25 - no leaks, coolant level maintaining ok, drove it locally and
>some freeway, all seemed ok.
> 4/25 - started out on long-anticipated vacation ... with little dog, 2
>little old cats, one human friend along ... 36 miles out of town, on the
>freeway, I suddenly lost power, made it to the shoulder (the good news, esp
>in SoCal) - coolant light flashing but temp gauge ok, and there we sat,
>vacation over. Checked in back - no coolant in fill bottle, some hissing and
>steaming but not outrageous. Paid $232 to get towed back to dealer who had
>done the work. Saturday Service Advisor no help at all - said check on
>Monday.
> 4/28 (my birthday! ... told ya' it got sadder) - yet another (!) service
>advisor said it popped a hose, coolant all drained out, now no compression,
>probably internal engine damage, new heads may now be bad, quoted $1000 to
>tear down and check out. I asked why coolant hoses hadn't been checked at
>time of repairs (no, I didn't ask before; yes, I should have; no I didn't
>know to ask) and he said he didn't know, and that if he'd been the service
>advisor at the time he would have recommended all hoses be replaced due to
>age of vehicle ... which I would have ok'd as I did the extra stuff they
>recommended, and I did ask them to "do it right". But he wasn't and the tech
>(personally recommended by first mechanic) didn't say anything about it or
>have it down as a recommendation. Said it needed a new motor but motors no
>longer available. I asked for a sit-down with service manager.
> I called original mechanic who recommended dealer, asking if I was being
>unreasonable in wanting them to take care of this, and he said he felt they
>should cover all or at least give me a heck of a deal. Hoses should have
>been checked and I should have had the chance to replace or decline.
>Obviously I wasn't trying to get by on the cheap if I ok'd the additional
>work, so hoses shouldn't have been an issue and should have been
>recommended. I asked if he could do the work if they were giving me the
>runaround and he said he could have my engine rebuilt if new heads were ok,
>or install after market long block motor if needed.
> 4/29 - met with service manager- he said he would have recommended new
>hoses, didn't know why it wasn't recommended but couldn't promise anything.
>Finally (I kept after him for half an hour) said he would tear it down and
>check it out for free, no promises beyond that except "deep discounts on the
>labor and he wanted to treat me right". I asked what if the new heads were
>now bad and he said "I would be very surprised if they aren't ok". Me: "but
>what if they're not" SM: "well, we'd have to talk about that at the time."
>He had no source for after market motor and said he'd talk to my mechanic
>about his source and get back to me.
> 4/30 - Service manager offer (hasn't checked anything out on the van
>yet): Labor free. Short block after market motor and all coolant hoses for
>$1731 (regularly would be $4075), no compensation for tow back to them.
>Motor warranty 12/12 with motor dealer, labor warranty with VW. To my
>(again) "what if the new heads are damaged?" he said (again) "we'd have to
>talk about that at the time." Told him I'd get back with him.
> Talked to referring mechanic (by now he's nice enough to feel *really*
>bad). He again said hoses should have been checked/replaced or at least the
>recommendation made for me to accept/decline. Said he would have also
>recommended water pump replacement even if only 1-1/2 years old and working
>ok, since it has to be removed for repairs anyway. Also said that the VW
>service manager did in fact call him for his source for a motor, but that
>the motor they were talking about comes with heads (so why does service
>manager keep giving me the runaround about "what if the new heads are bad"
>and why does he say he's quoting for a short block motor?). Apologized for
>referring me and suggested I hold my ground with them (very helpful with
>info as well as moral support, and truly angry over the whole thing, says
>never recommending these folks again - he could have put in a motor in the
>beginning for less than what they will have charged me "giving me a deal").
>Also recommended I call VW of America and see if they would intervene. I
>have asked him to write up an estimate for repairs for him to do the work -
>either new heads ok and rebuild my motor or after market long block motor if
>heads thrashed, plus water pump and hoses as needed, etc.- and he is to get
>back to me tomorrow with that.
> Called VW of America and was told they could not mediate because it has
>to do with workmanship of dealer, and each is an independent contractor.
>Suggested that this did indeed sound very frustrating and suggested I
>"follow all avenues available to me with the dealer". Said they would
>document a complaint against the dealership and gave me a reference number.
> Left message for service manager that I was waiting for indep mechanic's
>estimate, that I thought they should do better, and that I'd call him
>tomorrow.
>
> Again I apologize for the length of this, but I would very much
>appreciate any advice out there. My tendency is to tow the thing out of the
>dealer and let my highly-recommended independent mechanic check it out and
>do repairs. I have very little faith that the dealer will get it done right,
>and now the service manager (who is now calling me "Sweetheart" and
>"treating me like a girl", if you get my drift) is beginning to get
>defensive and belligerent ... and oh so condescending. He says "this will
>never fly in court, and I've been in a million of them". Great.
> Oh yes, I didn't mention that when I picked it up the first time (after
>one month!), the inside reeked of cat urine. Seems a shop cat got in the
>van, got scared, anointed the driver's seat liberally. I was told of this by
>the otherwise-useless Saturday Service Advisor who remembered the van when I
>had it towed in ... only because of the cat incident...... sigh... talk
>about adding insult to injury....
> I don't want to be unreasonable, but I do want the best repair and also
>compensation for damage caused by this hose which could so easily have been
>replaced at the time the heads were replaced (can't get my vacation back
>after all, and my birthday was certainly one I won't soon forget. Do I leave
>it with the dealer? Is his offer reasonable? Do I take it out of there and
>let the independent do the work and take this to court?
> Any advice would be most appreciated!
>Sally Strawn
>
>
>
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