Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 02:03:21 -0500
Reply-To: mostd@JUNO.COM
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: David Most <mostd@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Update and new question regarding shifting problems
Content-Type: text/plain
For those of you who were following my story and helping me, here's the
current outcome...
The clutch was siezed. The pilot bearing (using the words of the
mechanic) was completely shot, disintegrated, and only the shell was
left. So, for the archives, what felt like a linkage problem was a bad
pilot bearing (cause unknown), and it went very bad fast (after hearing a
faint sound for six months that never changed in pitch or affected clutch
operation).
The mechanic replaced the standard parts (pressure plate, disc, release
bearing, and pilot bearing), though he didn't indicate if I could have
gotten by with just the pilot bearing.
I asked about the condition of the input shaft, and he said that it
wasn't in bad shape. He said that he just sanded it a bit. I have a
question about this below.
I asked about the flywheel and associated seals, and he said that they
were all fine (i.e. no need to resurface or replace anything). Even
though the clutch only had 15k on it, my impression is that many listees
recommend resurfacing and seal replacement. Unfortunately, as I
mentioned earlier, it was hard enough to find a mechanic who is familiar
with vanagons. This guy wouldn't let me provide parts, so I was also
stuck with a relatively high bill. To his credit, and to my amateur
ears, he sounds like he knows what he's talking about.
QUESTIONS: As I drive now, there are NO clutch noises at all. But,
moving the shifter into gear just doesn't feel as smooth as it should
with a new clutch. It's a little more sluggish/rough going into first
and second than the other gears, but it's not really smooth all around.
I should add that it's not consistently sluggish in that sometimes it
goes quite easily into gear. Could the clutch parts have been installed
improperly to some degree (or is this really more of a dichotomy...good
or bad)? Assuming the clutch was installed properly, could extra damage
that happened when the old pilot bearing siezed (e.g., input shaft
damage) be the cause of the this problem?
Thank you all very much for your help. Though I still have questions, at
least I'm mobile now, and I don't have to request rides to work. I'll
save my other unrelated question for the next e-mail.
David
recovering '87 westy
On Sun, 08 Jun 2003 21:39:25 -0700 mark drillock <drillock@earthlink.net>
writes:
> The pilot bearing is pressed into the end of the crankshaft. The end
> of
> tranny input shaft then is inserted into the center hole of this
> bearing. Another name for the input shaft is the pilot shaft, hence
> the
> name of the bearing.
>
> The outer shell of the bearing is a thin steel case. This is the
> part
> that holds tight to the crank. The inner part is a ring of steel
> needle
> bearings and these ride and turn directly on the metal of the input
> shaft. When they go bad they chew up the end of the shaft and make
> what
> was smooth metal into a rough and gouged area until the needles
> don't
> turn anymore. Then it is called seized and the input shaft is forced
> to
> turn whenever the crank is turning. Even before they seize
> completely
> they damage the end of the shaft. Once you started hearing the noise
> it
> may have been too late to save the shaft. No way to know. Pieces of
> the
> bearing can come out and embed themselves in the flywheel and clutch
> surfaces. Then the clutch parts must be replaced or machined as well
> as
> the flywheel.
>
> The bell housing must be removed from the rest of the tranny in
> order to
> change the damaged input shaft. The tranny oil and the bell housing
> gasket must be replaced as part of this process. The pilot bearing
> is a
> $3 part that costs a lot of time and money to change unless the
> clutch
> is already being serviced. Sometimes shops neglect to put a new one
> in
> as part of a clutch job. On the waterboxer the flywheel must be
> removed
> to replace this $3 part and then the flywheel seal and O-ring should
> be
> replaced too. If the end of the shaft looks good then it is safe to
> assume the bearing is ok. If the flywheel seal is not leaking
> either, a
> shop might decide to save time and a few bucks by leaving the old
> parts
> in. This means that the clutch job won't last as long as it might
> have
> but that is the car repair biz.
>
> I don't remember how much I paid for my last new input shaft. I get
> good
> used ones from a local tranny shop for $20. I have changed 3 in the
> past
> month as part of tranny or clutch repair jobs. The first time you do
> one
> it may not be easy. After that it takes maybe 20-30 min with the
> tranny
> already out.
>
>
> Mark
>
> mostd@juno.com wrote:
> >
> > If only we all had vanagon owner's manuals with such
> explanations....
> >
> > In a prior e-mail, you mentioned the following:
> > "If the pilot shaft bearing chewed up
> > the tranny input shaft add still more time and money."
> >
> > Can you explain how a siezed pilot bearing causes the tranny input
> shaft
> > to be chewed up? What is the likelihood of this happening?
> >
> > I was told once that if a tranny is on the bench, it's "easy" to
> replace
> > the input shaft. What is a ballpark price for an input shaft, and
> how
> > much time should it take to replace?
> >
> > Thank you for your excellent and generous contributions.
> >
> > David
> >
> > On Sun, 08 Jun 2003 16:14:09 -0700 mark drillock
> <drillock@earthlink.net>
> > writes:
> > > Yes. The main purpose of the bearing is to allow the engine to
> turn
> > > at a
> > > different speed that the tranny input shaft. If the bearing is
> > > seized
> > > the tranny shaft will turn whenever the crankshaft is turning.
> Since
> > > both shafts turn together anyway when you are in neutral with
> the
> > > clutch
> > > pedal released the suspect pilot bearing is not needed at that
> time.
> > > It
> > > is also not needed when in gear and the vehicle is moving with
> the
> > > clutch pedal released. It's main use is when the vehicle is
> stopped
> > > in
> > > gear and the engine is running. That is what wears it out. Some
> > > people
> > > sit at stop lights with the clutch pedal down and the tranny in
> > > gear.
> > > Doing that forces this bearing to work that whole time and
> shortens
> > > it's
> > > life. It also does some work when you are shifting gears and
> have
> > > the
> > > clutch pedal down and if you make it a habit to coast in gear
> while
> > > holding the clutch down that will also require the bearing to do
> > > work.
> > >
> > > The pilot bearing is a little tiny needle bearing. It gets no
> > > lubrication it's whole life other than what it is given by the
> > > mechanic
> > > who puts it in. When you idle at a light with the tranny still
> in
> > > gear
> > > this poor bearing spins at 1000 rpm the whole time. It is
> amazing
> > > that
> > > they last as long as they do when driven properly but holding
> down
> > > the
> > > clutch while idling wears them out. They usually make noise long
> > > before
> > > they get so bad as to completely seize.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > >
> > > David Most wrote:
> > > >
> > > > If the pilot bearing is seized, would I still be able to start
> the
> > > engine
> > > > with the gear shift in neutral and just let it idle?
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________
> > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
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