Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:30:37 -0700
Reply-To: Tromper <tromper@ATTBI.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Tromper <tromper@ATTBI.COM>
Subject: Re: Alternate Fuels
In-Reply-To: <20030623095626.R58203@gull.us>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hmm last time I attempted this thread I had at least two "Engineers" on the
list sent me nastygram pmail saying how it would never work. Hopefully they
have gone onto less creative groups of people to associate with and have
become
much more relaxed and happy with life.
A couple a points.
A guy out in NY was deriving hydrogen from some variant of borax and
a catalyst..Running an old Chevy off it. Saw it on the moron box a
couple years back if my sense of time is correct.
The diesel motor was designed to run on plant oil, only problem is gelling
this is why you cure biodiesel with lye. The do run them on plant oil in
parts of SA according to a friend who was down there years ago. I suspect
they
were in a rural area. I have known of farmers in S. MN who used their own
plant waste to derive oils and alcohols to run farm equipment. Farmers can
be v. sneaky at times.
They use ethanol in Brazil. To convert the Manatee (my Dieselfant II/1.8l
89 Jetta motor)
would take a different head, readily available, and a different computer,
readily
available in Brazil, probably different fuel line, and misc. engine
electrics, doubtless
plug and play. The Fox motor, which is from Brazil has a lower compression
head, and I
suspect it's the same one that goes in the ethanol motors. I read that
roughly 4 million
plus cars run on it down there, and that numbers are going up. They get
their ethanol
from sugar cane. since this is gvt subsidized I don't know how it would
compete.
Further there's a fellow down in Mississippi, as I recall (I have the
article somewhere)
who rejetted a bug to run on it, his comment was that it ran smoother and
cooler, always
a plus for air-cooled motors. I don't know what came of CA's M85 push
http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/transportation/afv/ethanol.html is an
interesting link.
The CNG stuff is interesting since one thing we are good at it making
methane. I have
heard rumour that several list members have received accolades, and awards
for their
personal efforts usually involving beans :oP. Old waste piles are being
used by factories
these days, converting that kind of fuel is not too bad, the site above was
estimating
2-4k per vehicle. In VW terms this means a weekend wrenching, two wks
kvetching and
tweaking, and a couple hundred in misc. parts including beer (lubricant) and
pizza (fuel
source).
If anybody here knows about the use of plant oils for motor oil et al I'd be
interested.
I saw an old farm magazine that mentioned the idea, but didn't have a chance
to really
get into it since the Doctor had a cancellation ahead of me (age of magazine
unknown but
probably ancient).
Be well folks
Tromper
82 Dieselfant II - Gasoline engine with occasional methane boosts from
driver
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com]On Behalf
Of David Brodbeck
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 7:01 AM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Alternate Fuels
On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Bill Marshall wrote:
> What is anyone's opinion of using vegetable-generated fuels? Plants do a
WAY
> better job of converting sunlight than any solar arrangement. Cars
running
> on alcohol, diesels running on veg. oil. The existing fuel distribution
> infrastructure could remain in place.
Last I heard alcohol as a fuel still suffered from serious efficiency
problems in distilling -- to the point where cultivation and distilling of
alcohol from corn sometimes took more energy than you could get back by
burning the fuel. Modern agricultural methods are *highly*
energy-intensive.
I've never run into similar figures done for biodiesel. Maybe it has
better efficiency.
Of course, if you can find a way to make fuel out of something that's
currently a waste product, that helps the efficiency picture. I suspect
for the forseeable future there won't be any one major source of alternate
energy, but a bunch of niche ones.
David Brodbeck, N8SRE
'82 Diesel Westfalia
'94 Honda Civic Si