Vanagon EuroVan
Previous messageNext messagePrevious in topicNext in topicPrevious by same authorNext by same authorPrevious page (June 2003, week 4)Back to main VANAGON pageJoin or leave VANAGON (or change settings)ReplyPost a new messageSearchProportional fontNon-proportional font
Date:         Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:30:37 -0700
Reply-To:     Tromper <tromper@ATTBI.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Tromper <tromper@ATTBI.COM>
Subject:      Re: Alternate Fuels
Comments: To: David Brodbeck <gull@GULL.US>
In-Reply-To:  <20030623095626.R58203@gull.us>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hmm last time I attempted this thread I had at least two "Engineers" on the list sent me nastygram pmail saying how it would never work. Hopefully they have gone onto less creative groups of people to associate with and have become much more relaxed and happy with life.

A couple a points.

A guy out in NY was deriving hydrogen from some variant of borax and a catalyst..Running an old Chevy off it. Saw it on the moron box a couple years back if my sense of time is correct.

The diesel motor was designed to run on plant oil, only problem is gelling this is why you cure biodiesel with lye. The do run them on plant oil in parts of SA according to a friend who was down there years ago. I suspect they were in a rural area. I have known of farmers in S. MN who used their own plant waste to derive oils and alcohols to run farm equipment. Farmers can be v. sneaky at times.

They use ethanol in Brazil. To convert the Manatee (my Dieselfant II/1.8l 89 Jetta motor) would take a different head, readily available, and a different computer, readily available in Brazil, probably different fuel line, and misc. engine electrics, doubtless plug and play. The Fox motor, which is from Brazil has a lower compression head, and I suspect it's the same one that goes in the ethanol motors. I read that roughly 4 million plus cars run on it down there, and that numbers are going up. They get their ethanol from sugar cane. since this is gvt subsidized I don't know how it would compete. Further there's a fellow down in Mississippi, as I recall (I have the article somewhere) who rejetted a bug to run on it, his comment was that it ran smoother and cooler, always a plus for air-cooled motors. I don't know what came of CA's M85 push http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/transportation/afv/ethanol.html is an interesting link.

The CNG stuff is interesting since one thing we are good at it making methane. I have heard rumour that several list members have received accolades, and awards for their personal efforts usually involving beans :oP. Old waste piles are being used by factories these days, converting that kind of fuel is not too bad, the site above was estimating 2-4k per vehicle. In VW terms this means a weekend wrenching, two wks kvetching and tweaking, and a couple hundred in misc. parts including beer (lubricant) and pizza (fuel source).

If anybody here knows about the use of plant oils for motor oil et al I'd be interested. I saw an old farm magazine that mentioned the idea, but didn't have a chance to really get into it since the Doctor had a cancellation ahead of me (age of magazine unknown but probably ancient).

Be well folks Tromper 82 Dieselfant II - Gasoline engine with occasional methane boosts from driver

-----Original Message----- From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com]On Behalf Of David Brodbeck Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 7:01 AM To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: Re: Alternate Fuels

On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Bill Marshall wrote:

> What is anyone's opinion of using vegetable-generated fuels? Plants do a WAY > better job of converting sunlight than any solar arrangement. Cars running > on alcohol, diesels running on veg. oil. The existing fuel distribution > infrastructure could remain in place.

Last I heard alcohol as a fuel still suffered from serious efficiency problems in distilling -- to the point where cultivation and distilling of alcohol from corn sometimes took more energy than you could get back by burning the fuel. Modern agricultural methods are *highly* energy-intensive.

I've never run into similar figures done for biodiesel. Maybe it has better efficiency.

Of course, if you can find a way to make fuel out of something that's currently a waste product, that helps the efficiency picture. I suspect for the forseeable future there won't be any one major source of alternate energy, but a bunch of niche ones.

David Brodbeck, N8SRE '82 Diesel Westfalia '94 Honda Civic Si


Back to: Top of message | Previous page | Main VANAGON page

Please note - During the past 17 years of operation, several gigabytes of Vanagon mail messages have been archived. Searching the entire collection will take up to five minutes to complete. Please be patient!


Return to the archives @ gerry.vanagon.com


The vanagon mailing list archives are copyright (c) 1994-2011, and may not be reproduced without the express written permission of the list administrators. Posting messages to this mailing list grants a license to the mailing list administrators to reproduce the message in a compilation, either printed or electronic. All compilations will be not-for-profit, with any excess proceeds going to the Vanagon mailing list.

Any profits from list compilations go exclusively towards the management and operation of the Vanagon mailing list and vanagon mailing list web site.