Date:         Fri, 27 Jun 2003 03:40:18 -0400
Reply-To:     David Beierl <dbeierl@ATTGLOBAL.NET>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         David Beierl <dbeierl@ATTGLOBAL.NET>
Subject:      Re: [vanagon] R-12 alternative Update
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

This BS is getting tiresome.  Correction, it got tiresome a long time
ago.  Autofrost is one of the several brands of blended refrigerants that
are made of R414A, also known as GHG-X4 or HCFC blend Xi.  The brands
include Autofrost, GHG-X4 [sounds like the invention of our old friend
George Goble at Purdue University, doesn't like to wait for his charcoal to
light and thinks 60 pounds of charcoal and a gallon of LOX isn't too high a
price for 20 pounds of perfectly lit coals in ten seconds or so.  And
drives a Hummer.  A real one, not the recent Yukon/Tahoe abomination;
probably would be a cool Vanagon guy -- anyway...] MotoCool Chill-it, 414-A
and maybe others.

It is perfectly legal for use in new or retrofit auto air conditioning,
subject to the conditions imposed on all blend refrigerants and
additionally subject to the installation of barrier-type refrigeration hoses.

It is one of at least six legal blends containing propane or butane in
small amounts, in this case 4% -- the same as three others, and more than
the rest.

It is not flammable.  None of them are, or they wouldn't be
approved.  Guess what -- that's why there wasn't a FLAMMABLE label on the
canister.

It is legal.

The Canadian stuff is highly flammable.  It is not approved by the EPA for
automotive use -- no flammable refrigerant blend is approved for that
use.  As far as I know it's not approved for any use, but that's beside the
point -- no doubt it could be for some uses.  It is not Federally legal to
install an unapproved refrigerant in motor vehicle or motor vehicle-like
air conditioners except *possibly* under highly specialized conditions
which involve the re-conversion of a system that has already been
legitimately converted from R-12 to R134a, and it is completely illegal to
do so under any circumstances in several states.  It is Federally illegal
to vent *any* automotive refrigerant into the air, it must be removed using
properly certified recovery equipment.

*WHY ARE YOU BEING SO STUBBORNLY DISINGENUOUS ABOUT THIS???*  Nothing I've
said here is news to you, or should be.  Nobody doubts that the methane
stuff works extremely well, much better than R134a. Nobody has said that it
is insanely dangerous, only that it might or might not pose an acceptable
risk in various people's personal opinion.  IN THE PERSONAL OPINION OF THE
EPA, BECAUSE IT'S FLAMMABLE IT'S OFFICIALLY TOO DANGEROUS UNTIL SOMEBODY
PROVES OTHERWISE, SO IT WILL NEVER BE APPROVED UNLESS/UNTIL SOMEBODY COMES
UP WITH THE EVIDENCE, WHICH PROBABLY MEANS NEVER.  Personally, if I were
you I wouldn't advertise on publicly searchable mailing lists that I'd been
installing the stuff, and I certainly wouldn't be urging people to use it
without pointing them to the legal side of it.

That's it, I'm done.
david

At 12:16 AM 6/27/2003, CTOnLine@webtv.net wrote:
  I couldn't hardly wait to get home from work to expound upon some new
found knowledge to the soothsayer's of doom, the non believer's, and the
proponents of an alleged rolling time bomb, when using propane, butane,
or methane alternative based refrigerants in the sacred Vanagon, or Bus.

Here's the story--short and sweet---

While in the local VW parts room this morning behind the parts
counter---I see a bottle of 134a--no big deal--but parked right along
side of this bottle--is two more 30 pounder's--"Autofrost"--
I pick one of the bottles up--and read it--yea, it's got this and
that--but the last ingredient---is Propane--

Interesting--

"Yo Dave-- ( the parts mgr.) what's this stuff for--???"

"Oh, we use this all the time for R-12 vehicles"

"Really, and how many have blown up?"

What in the heck are you talking about" he says.

"Well, folks around the globe in the Bus, and Vanagon community, on the
internet have instructed the masses that in fact the vehicle with
anything like this in the AC system upon impact will go up like
Hiroshima if it's used in any vehicle"

"Tell them for me they are wacky--all three of our stores have been
using this refrigerant for 3 years, and have had no explosions, and
furthermore, our AC tech, has been to an update school several times in
the last several years and VW suggests the use of this product, in leu
of R-12"

The Mercedes dealer a mile away uses it, I know this--because when they
run out of their supply they purchase a bottle from me on occasion--and
the Jeep and Mopar dealer down the block uses it too"

Real interesting stuff I found out today--and to follow up on the impact
of the nuclear meltdown of any vehicle's in the area using any of these
alternative's in their AC systems--I'm doing some Q&A at several of
other dealerships tomorrow-- I'll hit Chevy and FOMOCO, and maybe even
BMW just to find out how volatile and dangerous this stuff really is--
right from the horses mouth--not from a few Edger Allan Poe novelists---

One more thing while I'm on the subject---
It was 90 plus degree's here for the last two days---
The digital thermometer permanently positioned in my rear vents of my 87
Westy read 36 degree's while at 60 --70 mph--and 38 while in traffic.

Must be some sort of fluke--it works real good--

6 weeks worth so far--and nothing but blissful cold air---

Hasta Lavista,

             ______________
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      ~~~ ~||-(())----(())-|

Terry--

        "Zoom, Zoom, Zoom"

--
David Beierl - Providence RI USA -- http://pws.prserv.net/synergy/Vanagon/
'84 Westy "Dutiful Passage"
'85 GL "Poor Relation"