Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:27:56 -0700
Reply-To: Tom Young <tomyoung1@COMCAST.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Tom Young <tomyoung1@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Helmet laws
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Lee Harrison" <tim@HARRISONLAND.CO.UK>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 6:35 AM
Subject: Re: Helmet laws
> Incidentally, you snipped the attribution from your post, and I can't
> remember whose the post was you quoted. Anyway...
>
> On Thursday 25 Sep 2003 12:49, Ron Tipton wrote:
>
> > Of course, the reason is cost saving. However, once we accept the
> > principle that cost savings is a legitimate reason for the government to
> > take freedom from us what's to keep that same government from using that
> > principle to take other freedoms? Perhaps a law requiring an hour of
> > exercise per day? Or maybe outlawing meat? Or outlawing motorcycles?
> > Or outlawing driving all together - after all public transportation is
> > cheaper? Maybe we should require at least six people to live in each
> > house - it would save money on energy if there were less empty space to
> > light/heat/cool. The principle can be used for complete control of all
> > aspects of our lives.
>
> You know that thing... erm... what do they call it? Oh, yes: democracy.
> It's the people that decide who governs them, isn't it? Excuse my sarcasm,
> but I can't resist when the examples you quote are so ridiculous and borne
> by paranoia. I'll paraphrase what I wrote in the original thread:
No one is arguing that the laws and regulations that limit personal freedoms
in the name of cost savings haven't been arrived at in a normal legislative
fashion. The corrosive effect on personal freedoms of accepting "free
stuff" from the Government is well understood; Benjamin Franklin had a few
thoughts on the subject:
"When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the
end of the republic."
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary
Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
> [snip]
> This is not a personal attack, I just *really* get fed up with these vague
> arguments that people like to quote in discussion which, in reality, they
> negate by acceptance of the provisions that the society they live in
> offer. If we're talking about our moral or social priciples, let's at
> least be consistent about it.
Hmmm... I think what you're saying is (to paraphrase) "If you're eligible
for the free stuff from the Government then you have to accept the
limitations on your freedoms imposed by the Government." Only thing is,
you can't "opt out" of eligibility because -here it comes - we're
"Entitled." Are you telling us that we can't be outraged at the loss of
personal freedoms because that loss has come about through the normal
legislative process? If I sign a form and provide proof that I've got
insurance, can I drive without a seatbelt?
> We're not talking about something stupid like a government that wants to
> forbid red shirts. We're talking about minimising the cost to society
> which is caused by accidents exacerbated by individual choices. I don't
> think it's unreasonable for those of us who pay for the damage to have a
> say in damage limitation. *That* is what being responsible is about.
No, that's what irresponsibility is about. Think about it:
Someone drives without a seatbelt, without insurance, and gets hurt. (We'd
all say, "that person is irresponsible.")
The Government says "We can't allow that person to face the consequences of
his irresponsibility, let's provide medical care."
The Government says "This is expensive! Let's make a law that *everyone* -
even the folks that wear seatbelts and have insurance - has to wear a
seatbelt!"
Result: Personal liberties for everyone are curtailed because of
irresponsibility.
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Tom Young '81 Vanagon
Lafayette, CA 94549 '82 Westfalia
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