Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:21:03 -0500
Reply-To: "sam.cooks" <sam.cooks@VERIZON.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: "sam.cooks" <sam.cooks@VERIZON.NET>
Subject: Re: Seeking Coolant bleeding web site, coolant to use
In-Reply-To: <3FC73CA5.4DEE89F6@quik.com>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
Jim,
check the archives of vanagon.com
check the info on the vanagon.com web site itself
this has been debated endlessly in the past, use of phosphate free is
almost universally agreed upon, but whether there is magic in the VW
antifreeze or particular types of phosphate free isn't clear, many
advocate yearly change as critical
all of this information will not be rewritten and reposted by the list,
particularly on a holiday weekend
attached are some files and posts I have downloaded in the past about
this subject - some very technical, also some info on changing it and
bleeding
also see a good how to change on Ben Huot's site
http://www.benplace.com/bleeding.htm
this may be more than you wanted to know
[also sent to list for informational purposes, knowing that attachments
are stripped]
--
Sam Walters
Baltimore, MD
89 Syncro GL
85 Westy Weekender
84 Vanagon, original owner, soon to be retired, just too many problems
All incoming and outgoing email scanned by
automatically updated copy of Norton AntiVirus.
Coolant drain, bleed, etc. Doktor Tim
I've been wanting to document in detail my enhanced factory procedure for
the Wasserboxer cooling system service. I get a perfect bleed every time
with less residue old coolant to shorten the life of the new.
Cooling System Service Produre for Wasserboxers.
1.) Initial inspection. Visually check for corrosion evidence. Get your
eyeball on each of the head nuts and look for weepage stains. Don't forget
to look over all pipes and the heater cores. Pull the cover off the rear
seat heater and verify no moisture on the floor or other evidence of
corrosion or leaking Front heater core at least verify the hose connections
that can be seen. Pulling up the carpet and getting a hand in there is as
close to verifying no leaks as you can get on the front core without
removal. Of note, I replace 4 rear cores to 1 front core. Don't know why
the fronts last a good deal longer than the rears, but they do. Evidence
of leaks or deterioration should be corrected prior to final filling and
bleeding.
2.) Dirty engine will enhance corrosive influences. Keeping the motor clean
means longer life for all rubber dust and moisture seals resulting in less
corrosive influences at terminals and grounds and head nuts and studs. As
electrons run on the surface of wires and metals, if you have a conductive
layer of dirt (mineral salts) and oil you get amps running in the layer of
filth and surface corrosion increases. Amps will leak off the electric
terms into the filth to ground. This not only leads to corrosion of the
terminals but bad signals and glitches hard to catch. Dirt on everything
from rubber to hard plastics sucks the life and resilience out of boots and
hoses and insulation and fuel injector bodies. Keep them clean and rub them
with glycerine and they will last 30 years, damn the ozone.
3.) Draining the system requires draining the heads. First time you remove
the lower covers, use a grinder or hack saw to open the mounting holes at
the exhaust ports into slots. From that point on you will only need to
loosen the exhaust port nuts/bolts a few turns to slip the covers on and
off for service. Spezial info as to lower exhaust port bolt at cylinder no.
1. Front exhaust pipes typically are just not jigged up properly. 9 out of
10 of this particular bolt are a bitch to get in and out without thread
issues. If you ever replace the front exhaust pipe I have ideas for solving
this ill fitting fit. But modren-fy the cover mount holes and reduce all
such issues and save time every time from that point on for coolant service.
4.) Head drain plugs have issues. No. one is sometimes the push rod tube is
too close to the action. Most certainly you must use a long pattern hex key
to clear. Yes, with care, you can lever on the tube and adjust them. The
seals are free floating if they were installed correctly. No. two is the
typical way over tightened drain plug. I do from time to time find them
that will twist a long pattern Snap On or Mac hex socket. This is just like
the spark plugs, oil drain and many other applications where half as much
as you think is plenty of torque. You must use copper crush washers. If
every time you torque them in properly, each time will crush the washer
just a tad. You can get 3 or 5 repeat uses out of these crush washers if
used properly. If the coppers on your are squeezed flat they will need to
be torn off with pliers to replace them. To set them right, turn them in
till they seat, then 1/8th turn max. I turn them in by feel, to the seat
with fingers then feel the crush with wrist action with short radius at the
ratchet handle. This tends to be less than an 1/8 turn with solid copper seals.
5.) I had the butt end up to remove the head plugs so now I lower that with
the drain pan in place. I verify the heater valves are open. I remove the
pressure cap. I raise the front as high as is safe with my equipment. I
remove the radiator bleed plug and let things drain for a few minutes. Then
I set the line pressure of my air hose to 20 lbs and hold a rubber tipped
nozzle over the bleed hole and seal it with my finger and give it 2 second
blasts every 5 seconds for a few minutes. It removes at least a coupla more
quarts from the lines and most of the trapped coolant out the heads.
6.) Now I lower the front and raise the rear, reinstall the head drains and
shields. I take the hose from the reservoir tank and lower it to drain in
the pan underneath. I premix the non-phosphate ethylene glycol. With my
equipment I get the rear high enough that the pressure tank top is nearly a
foot higher than the radiator bleed hole. I got a 3 step ladder to stand on
to pour in two gallons and about half way through the third gallon the
coolant will begin to flow out of the radiator bleed. I let it flow until I
see about two quarts of old remaining coolant has been pushed out. If it
was the wrong green I can see the color change when the new fluid pushes
the old out. This leaves a very small fraction of old coolant in the system.
7.) I replace the bleed plug, top off the pressure tank, install the cap
and lower the vehicle. I start it up and set the throttle with a third hand
to 2500 rpm or so for fast warmup. I remove the pressure cap and fill the
tank then replace the cap then I go to the bleed plug and twist it out
until I see/hear the hiss of air then coolant appears. Rarely do I get more
than half a cup of air initially. This is all accomplished before any
pressure has built up from heat. It can take a good 10 minutes of running
no load at 2500 rpm to fully heat and pressurize. I monitor the hoses until
I feel pressure beginning to build then twist the pressure cap loose
carefully and the last of the air in there is pushed out then seal the cap.
When I feel the heat at the radiator I give the bleed screw another try and
tend to get 2 or 3 tablespoons worth of air. I then watch for another 5
minutes until I see the radiator is hot enough that the coolant drips from
the bleeding are starting to evaporate. If the fan hasn't yet started it
will soon. One more bleed screw check for a tiny bubble or none.
8.) I leave it at high idle until the fan cycles twice, verify by feel hose
pressure. Shut down the motor. Do a final check for no leaks all over.
Check for air in the pressure tank once more them fill the reservoir and
hook up the hose. Then I rinse all coolant Then I test drive to verify temp
gauge under normal running and dry off the rinse water.
I get over 95% old coolant removal and no air at all every time. The first
time you do this you can have some issues, but with a bit of extra time
invested, all subsequent procedures will be quicker. It requires something
more than designed to be cheap Chinese tools. In particular it should not
be attempted without a quality brand name jack and jack stands.
One of the worst things for a cooling system is the regular topping off
of coolant. Every time you add coolant, you are also adding water with
freshly dissolved oxygen. Corrosion, here it comes. It is important for
the system to be tight.
The cooling system should not be opened or bleed with a warm engine.
Water even with Antifreeze will vaporize as law as 140 or so. As soon as
the system is opened, the vapor will make bleeding difficult as you now
some steam. In addition, since the heads have areas that get hooter than
the coolant, the loss of pressure will cause some "flashing" which will
cause uneven cooling and possible head warping, seal damage. I have also
found there is no benefit to raising the front. In fact it makes it
harder for the water pump to push the coolant up hill.
As for the perplexing tale, make sure the pressure cap is working
properly and have a leak down test performed to make sure coolant is not
leaking into the cylinders or combustion gasses pushing the coolant out
while driving.
Dennis
Open the bleed valve above the t-stat and you will get enough flow to
bleed it. Make sure the valve and hose is not blocked with crud. It is a
good idea to check all the small hose connections to that loop in the
engine compartment. I've seen them all get crudded up.
Dennis
The waterpump is always pressurizing the radiator. The thermostat is on
the return line from the radiator. Coolant won't flow through the
radiator unless it has somewhere to go. The open bleed screw gives it
somewhere to go even when the thermostat is closed.
Mark