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Date:         Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:21:03 -0500
Reply-To:     "sam.cooks" <sam.cooks@VERIZON.NET>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         "sam.cooks" <sam.cooks@VERIZON.NET>
Subject:      Re: Seeking Coolant bleeding web site, coolant to use
Comments: To: hosel <hosel@QUIK.COM>
In-Reply-To:  <3FC73CA5.4DEE89F6@quik.com>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;

Jim,

check the archives of vanagon.com check the info on the vanagon.com web site itself

this has been debated endlessly in the past, use of phosphate free is almost universally agreed upon, but whether there is magic in the VW antifreeze or particular types of phosphate free isn't clear, many advocate yearly change as critical

all of this information will not be rewritten and reposted by the list, particularly on a holiday weekend

attached are some files and posts I have downloaded in the past about this subject - some very technical, also some info on changing it and bleeding

also see a good how to change on Ben Huot's site http://www.benplace.com/bleeding.htm

this may be more than you wanted to know

[also sent to list for informational purposes, knowing that attachments are stripped]

-- Sam Walters Baltimore, MD

89 Syncro GL 85 Westy Weekender 84 Vanagon, original owner, soon to be retired, just too many problems

All incoming and outgoing email scanned by automatically updated copy of Norton AntiVirus.


Coolant drain, bleed, etc. Doktor Tim I've been wanting to document in detail my enhanced factory procedure for the Wasserboxer cooling system service. I get a perfect bleed every time with less residue old coolant to shorten the life of the new.

Cooling System Service Produre for Wasserboxers.

1.) Initial inspection. Visually check for corrosion evidence. Get your eyeball on each of the head nuts and look for weepage stains. Don't forget to look over all pipes and the heater cores. Pull the cover off the rear seat heater and verify no moisture on the floor or other evidence of corrosion or leaking Front heater core at least verify the hose connections that can be seen. Pulling up the carpet and getting a hand in there is as close to verifying no leaks as you can get on the front core without removal. Of note, I replace 4 rear cores to 1 front core. Don't know why the fronts last a good deal longer than the rears, but they do. Evidence of leaks or deterioration should be corrected prior to final filling and bleeding.

2.) Dirty engine will enhance corrosive influences. Keeping the motor clean means longer life for all rubber dust and moisture seals resulting in less corrosive influences at terminals and grounds and head nuts and studs. As electrons run on the surface of wires and metals, if you have a conductive layer of dirt (mineral salts) and oil you get amps running in the layer of filth and surface corrosion increases. Amps will leak off the electric terms into the filth to ground. This not only leads to corrosion of the terminals but bad signals and glitches hard to catch. Dirt on everything from rubber to hard plastics sucks the life and resilience out of boots and hoses and insulation and fuel injector bodies. Keep them clean and rub them with glycerine and they will last 30 years, damn the ozone.

3.) Draining the system requires draining the heads. First time you remove the lower covers, use a grinder or hack saw to open the mounting holes at the exhaust ports into slots. From that point on you will only need to loosen the exhaust port nuts/bolts a few turns to slip the covers on and off for service. Spezial info as to lower exhaust port bolt at cylinder no. 1. Front exhaust pipes typically are just not jigged up properly. 9 out of 10 of this particular bolt are a bitch to get in and out without thread issues. If you ever replace the front exhaust pipe I have ideas for solving this ill fitting fit. But modren-fy the cover mount holes and reduce all such issues and save time every time from that point on for coolant service.

4.) Head drain plugs have issues. No. one is sometimes the push rod tube is too close to the action. Most certainly you must use a long pattern hex key to clear. Yes, with care, you can lever on the tube and adjust them. The seals are free floating if they were installed correctly. No. two is the typical way over tightened drain plug. I do from time to time find them that will twist a long pattern Snap On or Mac hex socket. This is just like the spark plugs, oil drain and many other applications where half as much as you think is plenty of torque. You must use copper crush washers. If every time you torque them in properly, each time will crush the washer just a tad. You can get 3 or 5 repeat uses out of these crush washers if used properly. If the coppers on your are squeezed flat they will need to be torn off with pliers to replace them. To set them right, turn them in till they seat, then 1/8th turn max. I turn them in by feel, to the seat with fingers then feel the crush with wrist action with short radius at the ratchet handle. This tends to be less than an 1/8 turn with solid copper seals.

5.) I had the butt end up to remove the head plugs so now I lower that with the drain pan in place. I verify the heater valves are open. I remove the pressure cap. I raise the front as high as is safe with my equipment. I remove the radiator bleed plug and let things drain for a few minutes. Then I set the line pressure of my air hose to 20 lbs and hold a rubber tipped nozzle over the bleed hole and seal it with my finger and give it 2 second blasts every 5 seconds for a few minutes. It removes at least a coupla more quarts from the lines and most of the trapped coolant out the heads.

6.) Now I lower the front and raise the rear, reinstall the head drains and shields. I take the hose from the reservoir tank and lower it to drain in the pan underneath. I premix the non-phosphate ethylene glycol. With my equipment I get the rear high enough that the pressure tank top is nearly a foot higher than the radiator bleed hole. I got a 3 step ladder to stand on to pour in two gallons and about half way through the third gallon the coolant will begin to flow out of the radiator bleed. I let it flow until I see about two quarts of old remaining coolant has been pushed out. If it was the wrong green I can see the color change when the new fluid pushes the old out. This leaves a very small fraction of old coolant in the system.

7.) I replace the bleed plug, top off the pressure tank, install the cap and lower the vehicle. I start it up and set the throttle with a third hand to 2500 rpm or so for fast warmup. I remove the pressure cap and fill the tank then replace the cap then I go to the bleed plug and twist it out until I see/hear the hiss of air then coolant appears. Rarely do I get more than half a cup of air initially. This is all accomplished before any pressure has built up from heat. It can take a good 10 minutes of running no load at 2500 rpm to fully heat and pressurize. I monitor the hoses until I feel pressure beginning to build then twist the pressure cap loose carefully and the last of the air in there is pushed out then seal the cap. When I feel the heat at the radiator I give the bleed screw another try and tend to get 2 or 3 tablespoons worth of air. I then watch for another 5 minutes until I see the radiator is hot enough that the coolant drips from the bleeding are starting to evaporate. If the fan hasn't yet started it will soon. One more bleed screw check for a tiny bubble or none.

8.) I leave it at high idle until the fan cycles twice, verify by feel hose pressure. Shut down the motor. Do a final check for no leaks all over. Check for air in the pressure tank once more them fill the reservoir and hook up the hose. Then I rinse all coolant Then I test drive to verify temp gauge under normal running and dry off the rinse water.

I get over 95% old coolant removal and no air at all every time. The first time you do this you can have some issues, but with a bit of extra time invested, all subsequent procedures will be quicker. It requires something more than designed to be cheap Chinese tools. In particular it should not be attempted without a quality brand name jack and jack stands.


One of the worst things for a cooling system is the regular topping off of coolant. Every time you add coolant, you are also adding water with freshly dissolved oxygen. Corrosion, here it comes. It is important for the system to be tight.

The cooling system should not be opened or bleed with a warm engine. Water even with Antifreeze will vaporize as law as 140 or so. As soon as the system is opened, the vapor will make bleeding difficult as you now some steam. In addition, since the heads have areas that get hooter than the coolant, the loss of pressure will cause some "flashing" which will cause uneven cooling and possible head warping, seal damage. I have also found there is no benefit to raising the front. In fact it makes it harder for the water pump to push the coolant up hill.

As for the perplexing tale, make sure the pressure cap is working properly and have a leak down test performed to make sure coolant is not leaking into the cylinders or combustion gasses pushing the coolant out while driving.

Dennis

Open the bleed valve above the t-stat and you will get enough flow to bleed it. Make sure the valve and hose is not blocked with crud. It is a good idea to check all the small hose connections to that loop in the engine compartment. I've seen them all get crudded up.

Dennis

The waterpump is always pressurizing the radiator. The thermostat is on the return line from the radiator. Coolant won't flow through the radiator unless it has somewhere to go. The open bleed screw gives it somewhere to go even when the thermostat is closed.

Mark


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