Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 15:50:09 -0800
Reply-To: "Sean B." <vgonman@EARTHLINK.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: "Sean B." <vgonman@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: TiiCo California Smog Legal!
In-Reply-To: <AIEFIGCNNANNIHLNFBPEMEFGKFAA.vanagon@volkswagen.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I have been trying to stay on the sidelines of this particular issue of late
so that I don't (as someone said) "put a dagger in this kit for everyone
else". But now that other knowledgeable folks are bringing the same info to
light, I feel that I can also share my story.
Here goes...
My Tiico'ed van has been sitting in my driveway for over a year on "planned
non operation" (for those of you not familiar with the term, it is basically
a way to tell the state DMV that the vehicle won't be driven, so that I only
have to pay a $15 processing fee instead of the full registration cost and
smog check) because of the lack of California ARB certification. A couple
months ago I heard that the TiiCo kit had finally been issued a CARB
executive order (the paperwork from the state that says the motor is legal
for use on the street). I waited a week or two for the EO number to show up
on CARB's website, but when it still hadn't, I called the ARB. The lady
there told me that an EO had in fact been issued for the TiiCo, but didn't
go into any specifics.
I then waited for the CARB EO stickers from Peter and took the van to get
SMOGed. The guy at the smog shop saw the motor and said that it didn't
matter that I had the EO sticker, I still had to go to a state referee and
get it examined for confirmation that I'm in compliance with the EO number.
I made an appointment with a referee and took all the paperwork I had with
me to the appointment.
At first the referee couldn't find the EO number that the sticker referred
to, but then after a call to the ARB office in Sacramento he was able to get
a copy of the EO faxed to him. We read it over and I was a little surprised
to see that the EO referenced a "South African rebuilt 1991 Audi 80/90
motor". I figured, "Oh well, some VW and Audi motors are very similar... No
big deal." But there was the beginnings of a warning bell in the back of my
mind. Then I read further and saw that it mentioned the intake manifold from
a '93 through '96 Golf/Jetta and thought to myself, "That ain't what was
installed on my TiiCo!" The warning bell increased in volume. I continued
reading and saw that the EO mentioned the CALIFORNIA ECU (w/ part number)
for the '91 Audi 80/90 being used. I looked at the ECU that was in my van
and saw that the part number was nothing like what was mentioned in the EO.
The referee was very cool about it, but he had to fail me. The most obvious
reason was that he couldn't match the part number on the ECU to the part
number listed in the EO. The other point was the lack of a check engine
light. Now the EO doesn't mention a check engine light, but because it does
mention that the core motor is a "1991 Audi 80/90 motor" using a California
ECU, the van needed a check engine light because the 1991 Audi with the CA
ECU had a check engine light. I said okay because what the referee said made
sense and because he had been very nice about trying to help me get things
sorted out.
I went home and did a little research on the Audi 80/90. Now, I've been
dealing with VW motors (and swaps) for a few years in my own and friend's
car's. When I saw the engine code for the Audi motor, I thought to myself,
"oh shit! That certainly ain't the TiiCo!" Now, I'm not going to go into
detail about the differences between the Audi 80/90 motor and the TiiCo
because David M. has already done a very good job of it. If any questions
remain about these differences let me know. I own a Scirocco that has a
motor and fuel system that IS very similar to that of the Audi 80/90 and can
provide pictures of the obvious differences.
The only VW/Audi motor that I can think of that is at all close to the
functionality of the TiiCo motor is the 1995 VW Golf/Jetta. I also fully
back up what David M. has previously posted and am willing to offer the
same. Show me the Audi ECU connected and working with the motor, wiring, and
fuel rail provided by TiiCo and I'll give another $100.
The biggest question this leaves now is, What do we do about it?
Sean B.
'90 V'gon, "Happy Bus", pseudo Wolfy
'82 V'gon, "Rat's Nest" (Newest Addition)
'86 VW Scirocco 16v
'93 Suzuki GS500e
'79 Yamaha 750 Special (Project Bike)
Torrance, CA
Join the TiiCo registry at
HTTP://www.vgonman.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
David Marshall
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 11:02 AM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: TiiCo California Smog Legal!
What I am getting at is the motor they presented to the C.A.R.B. is a
*DIFFERENT* motor than what they sell in their kit. The ECU that is
mentioned in the EO *WILL NOT* work with the fuel injection system on the
motor nor even plug into the wire harness that is sold with their motor.
The Audi ECU is a K-Motronic (same as the 2.0L 16V Golf / Jetta motors) and
is not a OBD compliant ECU that you can access with a VAG-COM.
Show me a photo of the Audi ECU listed in the EO installed and functioning
on a motor that has a fuel rail and VAG-COM showing it is Motronic 9.0 and I
will give you $100 cash!
David Marshall
Fast Forward Automotive Inc.
4356 Quesnel-Hixon Road
Quesnel BC Canada V2J 6Z3
http://www.fastforward.ca mailto:sales@fastforward.ca
Phone: (250) 992 7775 FAX: (250) 992 1160
- Vanagon Accessories and Engine Conversions
- Vanagon, Transporter and Iltis Sales and Importation
- European Lighting for most Volkswagen models
Due to the large volume of email we receive, PLEASE include previous
emails when responding. This will allow us to read the complete dialogue in
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-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com]On Behalf Of
Kim Brennan
Sent: January 15, 2004 10:25 AM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: TiiCo California Smog Legal!
As has been discussed on the list before, The Tiico engine is a 2.0L block
with a 1.8L head. When plugged into VagCom the ECU says it is Motronic 9.0.
The kit as I've seen it delivered does NOT have a fuel rail. However a fuel
rail is easily adapted and added to a Tiico. The kit does not come with
braided metal fuel lines.
It isn't impossible that for California a different ECU is shipped. I'd have
to dig into the GoldBrick to see what part number is on the ECU.
In short, Tiico's hp rating, MIGHT be correct, for the head block combo
they've put together. "Brand New!" Well, I guess that depends on your
definition of sex...
