Date:         Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:52:49 -0600
Reply-To:     Jim Felder <felder@KNOLOGY.NET>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Jim Felder <felder@KNOLOGY.NET>
Subject:      Re: "green" cars (NVC)
In-Reply-To:  <40313603.3412.3D7A23@localhost>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

All so true. But the real issue here is a political one. We would be
better off if we reduced our appetite for fuel consumption, however and
wherever that fuel is created. In 20 years, nothing else will matter at
all.

Nothing else matters now, but we can afford to ignore the facts at
present. In due time, we will face those facts.

Jim

On Feb 16, 2004, at 9:28 PM, tom ring wrote:

> What most people don't seem to understand, is we have to get that
> energy from
> somewhere.  The only practical large scale sources right now are oil,
> coal,
> relatives of the previous 2, hydro, and nuclear.  Of the "clean"
> alternatives,
> wind and solar will never cut it in the near future, and probably not
> ever due
> to the low power density of what they run off from, and hydro is maxed
> out, and
> has it's own environmental problems.
>
> And soybeans, alcohol, etc don't count, 'cause they take about as much
> energy
> to produce them as they deliver.
>
> So no matter what fuel you run in your vehicle, it's not going to be
> derived
> from anything new in your lifetime.  Bet you lunch.
>
> tom
>
> On 16 Feb 2004 at 16:34, Steven Dodson wrote:
>
>> Sad but true.
>> It's unfortunate that the oil tyrants are pushing their
>> petrol-hydrogen crap
>> as the next generation fuel. They're cramming it down the throats of
>> Congress with their entourage of lobbyists.
>> This is sad, when there is perfectly clean hydrogen available from
>> electrolysis of water using energy from the sun. There are very highly
>> efficient hydrogen generation machines that produce clean hydrogen at
>> 250psi, powered by electricity from solar, wind or whatever. You
>> would still
>> need to compress it further for efficient storage as you would with
>> any
>> hydrogen.
>> Even more sad, when petrol-hydrogen is nearly as costly to produce as
>> the
>> clean stuff.
>>
>> I heard that Iceland is going 100% hydrogen (made from water) within 5
>> years. They are a huge producer of Aluminum products.
>> The goal is to create an autonomous energy economy and clean up their
>> industry and environment.
>> This is a worthy goal!
>>
>> -Steven Dodson
>> Kneeland, CA
>> "Inga" the 87 Syncro (soon to be bio-TDI)
>>
>>
>>
>>> Date:    Mon, 16 Feb 2004 15:33:58 -0500
>>> From:    Tim Demarest <tim.demarest@POBOX.COM>
>>> Subject: Re: "green" cars (NVC)
>>
>>> ...and before anyone spouts off about that wonderful hydrogen
>>> technology,
>>> remember that the current technology for manufacturing hydrogen is
>>> to crack
>>> hydrocarbons... that's right, they still run (indirectly) on crude.
>>
>>> http://www.engr.psu.edu/h2e/Production.htm
>>
>
>
> ------
> Tom Ring K0TAR, ex-WA2PHW  EN34hx
> 85 Westphalia GL Albert
> 96 Jetta GL The Intimidator
> taring@taring.org
>
> "It is better to go into a turn slow, and come out fast, than to go
> into a turn fast
> and come out dead." Stirling Moss
>