Date:         Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:18:42 -0500
Reply-To:     "Daniel L. Katz" <katzd54@YAHOO.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         "Daniel L. Katz" <katzd54@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: "green" cars (NVC)

tom is correct, of course.

as an example, the entire bonneville power administration (BPA)
hydroelectric output is equivelent to approximately 4 million gallons of
motor gasoline per year, which is roughly 1% of current consumption. that
is, devoting the entire BPA hydroelectric output to hydrogen production
(through electrolysis) would, theoretically, replace only 1% of motor
gasoline.

even if this much electric output were added per year, devoted entirely to
hydrogen production, mass immigration and the intent of increasing GDP
year after year would entirely absorb this new fuel supply.

dlk

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:28:35 -0600, tom ring <taring@TARING.ORG> wrote:

>What most people don't seem to understand, is we have to get that energy
from
>somewhere.  The only practical large scale sources right now are oil,
coal,
>relatives of the previous 2, hydro, and nuclear.  Of the "clean"
alternatives,
>wind and solar will never cut it in the near future, and probably not
ever due
>to the low power density of what they run off from, and hydro is maxed
out, and
>has it's own environmental problems.
>
>And soybeans, alcohol, etc don't count, 'cause they take about as much
energy
>to produce them as they deliver.
>
>So no matter what fuel you run in your vehicle, it's not going to be
derived
>from anything new in your lifetime.  Bet you lunch.
>
>tom
>
>On 16 Feb 2004 at 16:34, Steven Dodson wrote:
>
>> Sad but true.
>> It's unfortunate that the oil tyrants are pushing their petrol-hydrogen
crap
>> as the next generation fuel. They're cramming it down the throats of
>> Congress with their entourage of lobbyists.
>> This is sad, when there is perfectly clean hydrogen available from
>> electrolysis of water using energy from the sun. There are very highly
>> efficient hydrogen generation machines that produce clean hydrogen at
>> 250psi, powered by electricity from solar, wind or whatever. You would
still
>> need to compress it further for efficient storage as you would with any
>> hydrogen.
>> Even more sad, when petrol-hydrogen is nearly as costly to produce as
the
>> clean stuff.
>>
>> I heard that Iceland is going 100% hydrogen (made from water) within 5
>> years. They are a huge producer of Aluminum products.
>> The goal is to create an autonomous energy economy and clean up their
>> industry and environment.
>> This is a worthy goal!
>>
>> -Steven Dodson
>> Kneeland, CA
>> "Inga" the 87 Syncro (soon to be bio-TDI)
>>
>>
>>
>> >Date:    Mon, 16 Feb 2004 15:33:58 -0500
>> >From:    Tim Demarest <tim.demarest@POBOX.COM>
>> >Subject: Re: "green" cars (NVC)
>>
>> >...and before anyone spouts off about that wonderful hydrogen
technology,
>> >remember that the current technology for manufacturing hydrogen is to
crack
>> >hydrocarbons... that's right, they still run (indirectly) on crude.
>>
>> >http://www.engr.psu.edu/h2e/Production.htm
>>
>
>
>------
>Tom Ring K0TAR, ex-WA2PHW  EN34hx
>85 Westphalia GL Albert
>96 Jetta GL The Intimidator
>taring@taring.org
>
>"It is better to go into a turn slow, and come out fast, than to go into
a turn fast
>and come out dead." Stirling Moss