Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 08:35:30 -0500
Reply-To: Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Purging Cooling System of Air
In-Reply-To: <000001c4018f$df011e00$6400a8c0@masterpc>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
I have to agree with Dennis on this one. The 2.1l coolant system will
almost self-bleed without any assistance from you. I still bleed most
of the air out and then just drive the van and check the overflow tank
level for the next week. Usually by then all of the air will be out of
the system. If you look at the way the 2.1l coolant system is designed
you can see that there is really no way that an air pocket can exsist in
the engine block or any low spot since the coolant system has a raise
coolant rail that goes around the engine bay. This and the top of the
radiator become the high spots in the system. If either of these has
some air in them, it will not effect the flow of coolant in the system
(I know this from experience.
The only reasons you can have in a 2.1l for no coolant flow are:
blockages (in radiator or somewhere in the system)
Bad expansion tank cap (not allowing the system to come up to pressure)
Combustion gasses getting into the coolant system due to head crack or
bad head gasket.
If you find you keep having to bleed your coolant system I would suggest
you either buy the test kit from NAPA for block leaks (I just bought one
and it works very well) or take your van to a shop that has one of these
and can do the test for you.
Just FYI, either 1.9l or 2.1l I have only ever jacked the front of a
Vanagon up until the front tires just start to come off of the ground.
Never have had a problem getting a good system bled (7 years and counting).
Ken Wilford
John 3:16
www.vanagain.com
Dennis Haynes wrote:
>When driving the van normally, the transmission oil is spread about
>mainly by the pinion shaft and gear turning/splashing the oil about.
>When the transmission is in neutral, the input shaft and it bearings are
>turning but the output shaft is not. With the nose well up in the air,
>the front ball bearing is not submerged in oil, eventually it will run
>dry. I have removed a number of these bearings with the balls and races
>blue. No oil is the only reason I can think of for this. The Syncro does
>have a check valve to keep oil in the low gear housing for these uphill
>adventures but eventually it will come back.
>
>The fact that you eventually get all the air out following the book
>tells me there is a problem there. Letting the engine get hot without
>the cooling system pressurized is not a good thing. My method gets the
>cooling system running in a few minutes before the temp gauge even
>starts to rise.
>
>As for long term success, the FUN BUS now has 215K on the original
>engine with the original head gaskets. Last month it traveled from NY to
>Florida and back.
>
>As for disagreeing with me, hey, that's what these discussions are all
>about, learning and trying different things so I do not take any
>offense. Just trying to help. The 1.9L cooling system was not tolerant
>to any air in the system. The 2.1 is more tolerant and if all is well.
>If there is enough coolant for the pump to pump it, it will work out
>some air on its own. The need for frequent or difficult bleeding is
>indicative of a problem. In fact I recently replaced the long coolant
>pipes on a van where the radiator bleeder was frozen in place. I was
>able to get things working without it.
>
>Dennis
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf
>Of vanagon
>Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 12:13 AM
>To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>Subject: Re: Purging Cooling System of Air
>
>Dennis,
>I don't know you and you may have many years of experience and know much
>more than I, and I certainly mean no disrespect but I am going to
>STRONGLY
>disagree with you.
>Here's my response to your post below.
>
>Your comment: " If you ran the engine for any length of time with the
>front
>bumper off
>
>
>>the ground by 4 feet, you will also get the honor of overhauling the
>>transmission and possibly doing engine damage due to the oil flooding
>>into the rear cylinders. The water pump will not lift that high.
>>
>>
>
>My response: Please think about this, When I drive my stock 85 sunroof
>up
>steep hills in San Francisco my front bumper is PAST 4 feet relative to
>level.....hmmm wonder why my tranny and engine have not failed? Or,
>steeper
>yet, how about when I take my Syncro off road and climb a long hill? I
>know of no special oiling systems for the engine or tranny in the
>Syncro. I
>also have not heard of a single case of somebody living in steep areas
>or
>Syncros off road or folks like following the book to the letter,
>lunching
>their engines or trannys. Anybody ever heard of this? on the contrary I
>have heard of ALOT of engines blowing head gaskets. hmmmmm could
>purging
>the air be a possible culprit?
>
>In addition, I have done this "by the Bentley book" and it does
>eventually
>(though difficult) purges all the air out. My 85 which I rebuilt has 20k
>on
>it and I purged it "exactly by the book" raised as I stated with the
>front
>bumper almost 4ft off the ground or whatever it ends up being when you
>raise
>the cross member support the specified 15 1/2 inches from existing
>height.
>Guess what, my tranny and engine have not failed as you claim. And I
>ran
>the bus in this position for quite a long time until absolutely NO air
>was
>in the system. So you have someone telling you they did what you say
>will
>cause engine and tranny failure and it didn't happen. You are also
>disregarding what is clearly specified in the Bentley Official Service
>manual for the Vanagon for all years of water cooled models. hmmmmmm.
>perhaps you still know better, perhaps you are wrong about this. From
>what
>I know about air bubbles and angles of hose, Vanagons, and the
>reputation
>the Bentley guides have had since the beginning of my reading them in
>1973,
>I am here to tell you, you are giving incorrect advise, sir.
>
>What basis did you come up with your method? Did a factory mechanic say
>they get away with it at the dealer? By what engineering authority can
>you
>say I am wrong?
>
>Seriously, because, frankly, I hate getting antifreeze all over me! I
>would
>love to be able to use your method if it leaves my rig without a bubble.
>
>Cheers.
>
>Doug
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dennis Haynes" <dhaynes@OPTONLINE.NET>
>To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
>Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 8:24 PM
>Subject: Re: Purging Cooling System of Air
>
>
>
>
>>If you ran the engine for any length of time with the front bumper off
>>the ground by 4 feet, you will also get the honor of overhauling the
>>transmission and possibly doing engine damage due to the oil flooding
>>into the rear cylinders. The water pump will not lift that high. If
>>
>>
>all
>
>
>>is well, the 2.1 cooling system will self bleed with little assistance
>>and things this extreme are not needed. I would not drill a hole in
>>
>>
>the
>
>
>>t-stat as the massive capacity of the radiator will prevent the engine
>>from warming properly with even a small hole. The factory t-stat even
>>uses a rubber gasket on the disc to make sure it seals tight. The
>>aftermarket stats do not work as well in cold weather. There is a
>>
>>
>valve
>
>
>>on the top of the t-stat housing to get the return loop primed.
>>
>>Dennis
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
>>
>>
>Behalf
>
>
>>Of vanagon
>>Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 10:38 PM
>>To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>>Subject: Purging Cooling System of Air
>>
>>Well, I really appreciate all who have responded and are responding to
>>my initial question about this topic. Great minds think alike. Please
>>reference the Bently book to 19.16 Filling the cooling system.
>>
>>I believe that it is easy to miss-interpret the way this procedure
>>reads. Where it says to "raise vehicle approx. 40 cm (15 3/4 in.) at
>>front under cross-member with floor jack and wooden support or
>>equivalent" I think some folks tend to think this is only a height of
>>15 3/4 at the cross member. I believe "raise vehicle" means to LIFT IT
>>THAT MUCH. or it would read "raise vehicle TO.......at the cross
>>
>>
>member.
>
>
>>I am not sure some of us realize how high in the air this puts your
>>Vanagon. It is so high that the bumper ends up almost 4 feet off the
>>ground! My jackstands are all the way at there ends and then some
>>
>>
>placed
>
>
>>under the front jack ports on both sides. Putting the front wheels on
>>
>>
>a
>
>
>>curb ain't even close! not by a mile! nor is just saying to do it
>>level and it will be okay, its not ! . The factory recommends this
>>steep angle because the hoses leaving the engine go down before they
>>
>>
>go
>
>
>>level and it has a LONG way to go to get to the Radiator. I sincerely
>>doubt they would recommend such a steep angle with little regard.
>>
>>I am thinking of using a large plastic (new) Hudson type sprayer so I
>>can put the pre-mix into the sprayer tank and pressurize the top of
>>
>>
>the
>
>
>>fluid. This makes kind of a large version of what a Power Brake
>>
>>
>Bleeder
>
>
>>is. Hudson sprayers pull from the bottom of the tank so if you keep it
>>topped up you will never put air in the system. then I can use an old
>>cap with the spring valve removed to connect to the system. As long
>>
>>
>as
>
>
>>one can get past the thermostat I should be able to make good
>>
>>
>progress.
>
>
>>But I will definitely have the vehicle raised to the prescribed height
>>in the front as the factory says.
>>
>>By getting more fluid in the system, without having to start the
>>
>>
>engine
>
>
>>it will make things much easier, because until the fluid can circulate
>>well, it overheats, and the steam pressure pumps your new fluid back
>>
>>
>out
>
>
>>all over you, your engine, your hot exhaust, even while the darn thing
>>is revving along at 2200 rpms with the front 4 feet off the ground.
>>
>>
>It
>
>
>>will splash back out of the tank. You will definitely find yourself
>>asking if you are having fun yet.
>>
>>Please keep the suggestions coming, there are allot of creative minds
>>out there and well all need a better way to do this.
>>If the Hudson sprayer idea works I will follow up.
>>My other idea is to run the water pump from an electric motor with a
>>
>>
>fan
>
>
>>belt or similar, again, to get more fluid in before running the
>>
>>
>engine.
>
>
>>I also considered drilling a small 1/8 hole in the metal of the
>>thermostat because I notice it seals absolutely shut. This would
>>
>>
>allow
>
>
>>you to do a slow fill past it.
>>Whatdoyathinkofthat
>>
>>Cheers,
>>
>>Doug
>>
>>
>
>
>
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