Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 14:26:11 EDT
Reply-To: Oxroad@AOL.COM
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Jeff Oxroad <Oxroad@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: 91 Vanagon will not start..?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
In a message dated 5/30/2004 9:01:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
vanagonman@EARTHLINK.NET writes:
> but
> if I jump it with another vehicle she will start right up..
>
>
A couple of things come to mind. If any of this is information you already
know please just ignore. If you have already been through the following
hopefully more ideas will come off the list.
It seems you have one of two problems both resulting in the starter not
getting proper power. The first would be a bad battery--even though it bench tests
OK. The second is a bad wiring connection because of corroded or dirty
connections or faulty or corroded or just worn out wiring somewhere in the system.
You might get lucky in this later case and find it as simple as a dirty
connection. It is surprizing how a seemingly tiny bit of oxidation can render a
perfectly good battery useless to starter motor on the other side of the oxidation.
The first thing I'd want to know is what brand battery you've bought and if
it is the correct type for the Vanagon. Could be they're giving you the wrong
battery. Could also be a problem with the battery leading it to bench test fine
but not perform properly. This is probably not the problem, but I have heard
of batteries with a poor link between the cells which causes them to test
fine, but under load (like starting) the poor connection comes into play and drops
the battery by 2 volts at the bad cell. In this scenario the battery doesn't
have enough power to turn the starter motor. Specifically I have heard Sears
Diehard has had a problem in this area. I'm sure haev had much luck with the
DieHard--I never have.
Another problem with Sears is their battery technicians and mechanics tend to
be pretty poor. Therefore not the best people to troubleshoot your battery or
battery problem. I suppose this may spill over to other kind of bad
retailers. Obviously you want a skilled mechanic testing your Vanagon and preferably
someone who is a Vanagon expert as the Vanagon has some unique qualities
mechanically speaking.
My next guess would be a poor electrical connection. This could be as simple
as an unclean battery post connector. The connector that you attach to the top
of the battery needs to be clean on the insdie where it contacts with the
battery post. There are special little wire brushes that are designed to clean
the battery post and the insdie of the battery connecter. You can get one at any
auto parts store and it's a good cheap addition to you tool box. Possibly you
can get inside the battery connecter with a piece of sand paper. But
ultimately the inside of the terminal connector needs to be shiney to make good
contact.
If you have a dirty connection this will make it difficult to properly charge
the battery--possibly leading to your old battery's failure, and difficult
for the power from the battery to properly get to the started motor.
Because your Vanagon starts with a jump I'd be curious how you are connecting
the jumper cables to your bus. Are you connecting both cables to the battery
posts or is the negative jumper wire grounded to the body somewhere? If you
are connecting the jumper cable to the body and the bus is starting you may have
a bad ground cable.
Clean up the ground cable or strap both at the battery as described earlier
and the other end under the bus or maybe in the battery box where the cable or
strap is bolted to the body. Unbolt this end and clean both the cable and the
body metal where the cable bolts. Ultimately you want a good CLEAN
connection--meaning bare metal where the cable meets the body. You do not need to sand
excessively-- Just where actual contact between the cable and the body meet.
Make the metal on both shine.
You also have a long amount of cable going from the battery to the starter
motor and back and forth to the igntion key switch. Whereas in most vehicles the
battery is relatively close to the starter motor and the ignition switch, the
Vanagon is unique in that the engine is in the back of a long vehicle and the
key is in the front as in the battery and means about 15 or 20 more feet of
wiring than you would have in a standard front engine front battery vehicle.
Cable connections at the starter need to be checked and cleaned as
appropriate as well.
A simple volt meter would be helpful to check this out or any reputable shop
can very easily check this out. Basically you want to check the voltage drop
at the starter. Unfortunatley I am not comfortable with giving the specifics of
what your voltage should be at the battery and the starter. Someone else on
the list will have to chime in with these stats--or like I said have a shop
check it out. The test is only as good as the technician doing the work, so I'd
avoid lousy shops like Pep Boys and Sears and the other lousy chains, Wal Mart
also. Ultimatley the best is a Vanagon expert.
The thing is if you do have a bad connection somewhere or corroded wiring the
second battery you are using to jump the vehicle is working in consort with
your battery giving enough juice with the two batteries to overcome the
problem. Or the connection at the jumper cables could bypass a poor terminal
connection on your battery allowing the power to get where it's needed. Ultimatley
once the battery cables are cleaned or the corraded wiring replaced one
battery--your battery-- will do the trick to start the bus. This is in the case that
your new battery is the proper battery for the Vanagon and in fact functioning
properly.
The fact that your battery retailer so readily took back the first battery he
sold you implies 1.he is a compitent mechanic, bench tested the battery,
found it faulty and exchanged it, or 2. he has no idea what he's doing. I'm
guessing it's the latter.
The following disclaimer for your safety, just to reiterate if you already
know. There are safety concerns with all of the above. A battery gives off
flammable gases so sparks at the battery during installation, removal, and
attaching or removing jumper cables can cause an explosion. Wear goggles. Obviously if
some one is under the bus while someone else is turning the key precautions
must be taken to make sure no one gets run over. Emergency rooms are crowded on
weekends. Make sure the vehicle is in neutral or park and the emergency brake
is properly set.
Again if you have all this info. alreayd sorry to repeat.
Good luck
Best
Jeff
83.5 Westfalia
LA,CA