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Date:         Tue, 1 Jun 2004 22:09:11 -0600
Reply-To:     Ryan Mark Shankland <mark.shank@COMCAST.NET>
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-----Original Message----- From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of Doug in Calif Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 8:45 PM To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: Re: Synthetic oils in the vanagon

I am sorry, I know I said I would give everybody the last word on this. But since Tom put such an incredibly large amount of work into taking my post apart to disagree in every place he possibly could, I cannot resist at least responding to his. Then I am done I promise!

Tom, You write well, you did a very good job of taking my post apart and you supported your points well I have to admit. I am wondering what type of fellow owns a rabbit diesel and sends off his oil to a lab at the Cleveland Technical Center for analysis every 7500 miles? Perhaps your experience is worth 50 cents to our 2 cents as your image of your self in signing off indicates? Perhaps?

One area in your response I will challenge is the use of analogies to try to prove your point. I think it weakens your arguments. When you say things like this:

" Vacuum tube TV's went out about the time Vanagon's hit the US market. Only the picture tube is left and they are

rapidly going away in favor of flat screens. Do you still insist on tube technology? Lubricants advance with time as well. Even petroleum lubes. The problem is oil companies don't like to spend more on the additives than they want to get for the oil."

And This: "Why do you think synthetic oils are ONLY used in jet engines? Dino doesn't cut the mustard."

In your first analogy you are comparing Oil progress to the explosive progress of the silicon transistor, does one prove anything about the other? really? no.

In your second analogy you are saying what? the vanagon has the same oil requirements of turbine engines in jet aircraft? yes you are, and no it does not prove you need it in a vanagon.

Please listen carefully, an analogy only proves the example in the analogy, it does not prove anything about your point. Its just a weak attempt to prove a point that will not stand up on its own.

It would be like me saying to you : Running synthetic oil in your vanagon is like running tires rated for sustained speeds of 180mph on your vanagon. You cannot dispute the tires are better, but will I actually use the benefit of the higher quality tire, driving 75 mph ? no. The analogy is true the tires are better, and you really don't need them, but does it prove anything about oil? no.

You also go on and on about the longevity of synthetics when used with high filtration by pass filters. No argument from me. Are you not forgetting the point of discussion is synthetic oils in the vanagon? The vanagon has no such added by pass high filtration for the oil and when you try to tell me Mobil 1 will somehow stay cleaner running my Mann filter I am going to tell you, "uh huh".

You will still need to change the synthetic at your normal change intervals, in fact many factory recommendations have come right out and said the approve the used of synthetics but you must maintain the same oil change intervals to keep your warranty up. Sorry ....

I could go on and on and dispute every one of your points right down to you telling me I will be the last guy buying dino oils. You may be right about that but I doubt it. Synthetics are keeping pace with automotive engine technology and when most cars on the road have high filtration systems, the synthetics will likely drop in cost to equal the dino stuff. When that happens you will be able to buy it for the same price so why not run it. You will still have to change it or add on a by pass filter but I agree its coming. But its not here yet and its extra performance bandwidth is not going to be noticed over standard oils in the vanagon, which is what this whole thread is really about.

Let me just say in closing that my .03 cents worth of experience has me rebuilding vw engines all the way back another 10 years prior to your 1985. to 1975. I have taken apart and rebuilt lots and lots of engines all of my life. I grew up in my Pop's machine shop as a kid and bought his Porsche when I was 20 and its been cars and engines ever since. I know synthetics will take more heat without burning because I have done tests and they certainly do you especially need them in turbo charged cars where the oil temp when it reaches the turbo bearings soars in temp. But we are talking about the VW Vanagon and normal types of temps in most every day cars.

I am wondering how many crankshafts and camshafts have you polished? how many vanagon waterboxer engines have you yourself taken apart? how many sets of vw main, rod, and cam bearings have you ever laid eyes on to inspect and replace?

I will put my hand built 2.1 dino oil swallowing WBX up against your synthetic drinking WBX any day on the free way or our shops for a 100K rebuild.

I am here to tell you we will both be tossing our 10 dollar set of used rod bearings in the trash, its not going to matter when you rebuild your engine trust me.

I give you the final word

Doug

----- Original Message ----- From: tmiller To: Doug in Calif Cc: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 3:45 PM Subject: Re: Synthetic oils in the vanagon

Doug in Calif wrote:

>Well, >Its obvious which side of the argument I am in here. >I say spend those extra oil dollars on your sweethearts and you will likely get a great deal more out of your money. > Might be good for your sweatheart, but not your pocketbook or the environment.

>To begin with, the only research I need is that the standard oils you can buy meet and exceed both the stated requirements >listed in the VW owners manuals of ALL vanagons,the Bentley bible, The current VW factory, and VW dealers, today. >So there's MY basic research to support not needing to pay extra for synthetics. >There has been no revision from VW factory to switch vanagons over to synthetics. > They do mention the use of synthetic oils in the owners manuals. That

is the lubricant of choice in VW's in Europe.

>You "pro synthetic guys" have the burden of proof that I somehow "need" to run it in my vanagon, or that there is some significant benefit if any, its not the other way around. >YOU are suggesting the change from what is recommended in the owners manual of the VW as well as HUNDREDS of other new vehicles today NOT requiring synthetics, not ME. >You are the ones claiming some benefit, I say show me PROOF, real data not "my oil stays cleaner longer"...."it runs cooler" uh huh......Sorry I don't buy it. > Your owners manual predates most synthetic lubricants so they are not mentioned in your manual. Vacuum tube TV's went out about the time Vanagon's hit the US market. Only the picture tube is left and they are rapidly going away in favor of flat screens. Do you still insist on tube technology? Lubricants advance with time as well. Even petroleum

lubes. The problem is oil companies don't like to spend more on the additives than they want to get for the oil. I spend enough money on maintenance, and the use of a 99 cent a quart oil is not in the cards. It is actually cheaper to use the synthetic because you do not change it nearly as often. Why do you think synthetic oils are ONLY used in jet

engines? Dino doesn't cut the mustard.

>I have torn down hundreds of air cooled beetle engines, which were driven and abused as hard as any engine, several Porsche engines, and now a few waterboxer engines. >I have inspected EVERY PART in these engines, where is this advantage? The main, cam and rod bearings?, the rings or cylinder walls? the cam followers? the valve guides? Where is this "magical" lack of wear ? >I do not see it. > The idea is to get equal or better wear with 1/5th the oil changes or better. I used AMSOIL 15W-40 in my Rabbit diesel and had oil analysis

check for wear metals and to advise when I should change the oil. Every 7500 miles I sent a 4 oz. sample to Cleveland Technical Center. They always came back with oil good for continued use and much lower wear particles in the oil. They finally told me to change the oil at 40,000 miles due to the viscosity approaching 15W-50 from soot buildup and winter approaching. Wear particles did not rise at all. I put 300,000 on that car and sold it to a friend of mine. It is still running. Consider how much less oil we would need from Saudi Arabia if we all practiced long drain intervals safely! After that, I just changed it every year which was about 25K miles with a filter change in between.

My fuel economy did not change, but at 50 MPG, how would I notice a small % increase?

>If you think you can get more mileage out of oil changes because you use synthetic you are doing FAR MORE damage to your engine and you wrongfully think you are benefiting. You WILL see the wear on the bearings from not keeping engine oil as clean as possible at all times. > >Combustion carbon particles get in the oil regardless of if you are using synthetics or not, so now we are comparing dirty synthetic to fresh clean dino oil. >I will go with clean "approved rated for my vehicle" oil. > Very true. The idea is to remove particles under 5 micrometers so there is not contact when flowing between the tight bearing clearances. Particles in the 15-20 micrometer range do the most damage. Diesel soot is 0.2 micrometers and less so they don't affect wear unless permitted

to form deposits. Proper detergent/dispersent additives prevent that. This is why good filtration is a must with any lubricant. Sythetics can be filtered to finer particle sizes because they do not contain the wax and parrafins that restrict flow in petroleum oils. Big rigs use a large bypass oil filter that filters finer than that to permit use of the oil far beyond 25,000 miles. With synthetics, bypass filtering, and oil analysis, they can go 100,000 miles between changes with no problem. The resultant reduced engine wear allows them to extend in frame overhauls from 275,000 miles to 500,000 miles or more. I've seen it done.

If you change your synthetic every 3-5 thousand miles now you are spending ALLOT more cash than me over 100K miles.

This is what the oil companies want you to do because their oil additives won't go any further. With synthetics, that is not a limitation. 3 times dino drain intervals are conservative as a result. I bet I spend much less than you on vanagon lubrication with my synlubes. And I don't generate 5-8 times the waste oil that needs to be imported and then recycled when changed each year.

>Vanagons do not suffer from lubrication or oil problems that synthetics are the answer for, they are overkill in the vanagon are and not needed period. > They seem to be tough little machines. But the advantages are even longer life between rebuilds and less oil used. That sells it for me.

>Buy yourself some spare head gaskets and retorque your heads every 40-50K and you will be doing ALLOT more for your engine life. >Save your money or put it towards what you will really get something back from, like perhaps another vanagon, new suby motor. 15inch wheels or flowers for your gal. > That is something you will be able to do if you use synthetic lubes. Instead of spending $1500+ for an engine rebuild, buy her a better diamond ring!

>You will be rebuilding your engine in the same amount of time as if you kept regular clean oil in your rig. >If you run your oil dirty you will be rebuilding sooner regardless. > NOT! Wear particles in the oil prove otherwise.

Just one mans opinion,

>You guys can have the last word, spend your cash on whatever puts a smile on your face. > >Doug - Taking Dino toCostco to buy another couple cases of Chevron Supreme "dinosaur" oil > Somebody needs to keep them in business. You will one day soon find that you are the last man using it. Already, ATF standards have exceeded what dino ATF can manage. New API standards for motor oils are getting tighter and tighter and the "big three" are starting to use Mobil 1 at factory fill. The Corvette is a good example. Many manual

transmissions and differentials use synthetic gear lubes "filled for life", like my 96 VW Cabrio automatic. It came rom Germany with their

synthetic ATF. There isn't a drain plug on the transmission!!

If anyone wants to see the oil analysis report on my 81 Rabbit, drop me an email and I will send a .pdf of it to you. They also check for silicon (bad air filter), water and glycol (coolant leaks), fuel dilution (leaking injectors), viscosity and additive chemistry changes

indicating when it is time to change the oil.

My 50 cents worth of experience since 1985. Tom Miller


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