Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 22:09:11 -0600
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-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
Doug in Calif
Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 8:45 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Synthetic oils in the vanagon
I am sorry, I know I said I would give everybody the last word on this. But
since Tom put such an incredibly large amount of work into taking my post
apart to disagree in every place he possibly could, I cannot resist at least
responding to his. Then I am done I promise!
Tom, You write well, you did a very good job of taking my post apart and you
supported your points well I have to admit. I am wondering what type of
fellow owns a rabbit diesel and sends off his oil to a lab at the Cleveland
Technical Center for analysis every 7500 miles? Perhaps your experience is
worth 50 cents to our 2 cents as your image of your self in signing off
indicates? Perhaps?
One area in your response I will challenge is the use of analogies to try to
prove your point. I think it weakens your arguments.
When you say things like this:
" Vacuum tube TV's went out about the time
Vanagon's hit the US market. Only the picture tube is left and they are
rapidly going away in favor of flat screens. Do you still insist on
tube technology? Lubricants advance with time as well. Even petroleum
lubes. The problem is oil companies don't like to spend more on the
additives than they want to get for the oil."
And This: "Why do you think synthetic oils are ONLY used in jet
engines? Dino doesn't cut the mustard."
In your first analogy you are comparing Oil progress to the explosive
progress of the silicon transistor, does one prove anything about the other?
really? no.
In your second analogy you are saying what? the vanagon has the same oil
requirements of turbine engines in jet aircraft? yes you are, and no it
does not prove you need it in a vanagon.
Please listen carefully, an analogy only proves the example in the analogy,
it does not prove anything about your point. Its just a weak attempt to
prove a point that will not stand up on its own.
It would be like me saying to you : Running synthetic oil in your vanagon is
like running tires rated for sustained speeds of 180mph on your vanagon. You
cannot dispute the tires are better, but will I actually use the benefit of
the higher quality tire, driving 75 mph ? no. The analogy is true the tires
are better, and you really don't need them, but does it prove anything about
oil? no.
You also go on and on about the longevity of synthetics when used with high
filtration by pass filters. No argument from me.
Are you not forgetting the point of discussion is synthetic oils in the
vanagon? The vanagon has no such added by pass high filtration for the oil
and when you try to tell me Mobil 1 will somehow stay cleaner running my
Mann filter I am going to tell you, "uh huh".
You will still need to change the synthetic at your normal change intervals,
in fact many factory recommendations have come right out and said the
approve the used of synthetics but you must maintain the same oil change
intervals to keep your warranty up. Sorry ....
I could go on and on and dispute every one of your points right down to you
telling me I will be the last guy buying dino oils. You may be right about
that but I doubt it. Synthetics are keeping pace with automotive engine
technology and when most cars on the road have high filtration systems, the
synthetics will likely drop in cost to equal the dino stuff. When that
happens you will be able to buy it for the same price so why not run it.
You will still have to change it or add on a by pass filter but I agree its
coming. But its not here yet and its extra performance bandwidth is not
going to be noticed over standard oils in the vanagon, which is what this
whole thread is really about.
Let me just say in closing that my .03 cents worth of experience has me
rebuilding vw engines all the way back another 10 years prior to your 1985.
to 1975. I have taken apart and rebuilt lots and lots of engines all of my
life. I grew up in my Pop's machine shop as a kid and bought his Porsche
when I was 20 and its been cars and engines ever since.
I know synthetics will take more heat without burning because I have done
tests and they certainly do you especially need them in turbo charged cars
where the oil temp when it reaches the turbo bearings soars in temp. But we
are talking about the VW Vanagon and normal types of temps in most every day
cars.
I am wondering how many crankshafts and camshafts have you polished? how
many vanagon waterboxer engines have you yourself taken apart? how many sets
of vw main, rod, and cam bearings have you ever laid eyes on to inspect and
replace?
I will put my hand built 2.1 dino oil swallowing WBX up against your
synthetic drinking WBX any day on the free way or our shops for a 100K
rebuild.
I am here to tell you we will both be tossing our 10 dollar set of used rod
bearings in the trash, its not going to matter when you rebuild your engine
trust me.
I give you the final word
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: tmiller
To: Doug in Calif
Cc: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: Synthetic oils in the vanagon
Doug in Calif wrote:
>Well,
>Its obvious which side of the argument I am in here.
>I say spend those extra oil dollars on your sweethearts and you will
likely get a great deal more out of your money.
>
Might be good for your sweatheart, but not your pocketbook or the
environment.
>To begin with, the only research I need is that the standard oils you can
buy meet and exceed both the stated requirements
>listed in the VW owners manuals of ALL vanagons,the Bentley bible, The
current VW factory, and VW dealers, today.
>So there's MY basic research to support not needing to pay extra for
synthetics.
>There has been no revision from VW factory to switch vanagons over to
synthetics.
>
They do mention the use of synthetic oils in the owners manuals. That
is the lubricant of choice in VW's in Europe.
>You "pro synthetic guys" have the burden of proof that I somehow "need"
to run it in my vanagon, or that there is some significant benefit if any,
its not the other way around.
>YOU are suggesting the change from what is recommended in the owners
manual of the VW as well as HUNDREDS of other new vehicles today NOT
requiring synthetics, not ME.
>You are the ones claiming some benefit, I say show me PROOF, real data
not "my oil stays cleaner longer"...."it runs cooler" uh huh......Sorry I
don't buy it.
>
Your owners manual predates most synthetic lubricants so they are not
mentioned in your manual. Vacuum tube TV's went out about the time
Vanagon's hit the US market. Only the picture tube is left and they are
rapidly going away in favor of flat screens. Do you still insist on
tube technology? Lubricants advance with time as well. Even petroleum
lubes. The problem is oil companies don't like to spend more on the
additives than they want to get for the oil. I spend enough money on
maintenance, and the use of a 99 cent a quart oil is not in the cards.
It is actually cheaper to use the synthetic because you do not change it
nearly as often. Why do you think synthetic oils are ONLY used in jet
engines? Dino doesn't cut the mustard.
>I have torn down hundreds of air cooled beetle engines, which were driven
and abused as hard as any engine, several Porsche engines, and now a few
waterboxer engines.
>I have inspected EVERY PART in these engines, where is this advantage?
The main, cam and rod bearings?, the rings or cylinder walls? the cam
followers? the valve guides? Where is this "magical" lack of wear ?
>I do not see it.
>
The idea is to get equal or better wear with 1/5th the oil changes or
better. I used AMSOIL 15W-40 in my Rabbit diesel and had oil analysis
check for wear metals and to advise when I should change the oil. Every
7500 miles I sent a 4 oz. sample to Cleveland Technical Center. They
always came back with oil good for continued use and much lower wear
particles in the oil. They finally told me to change the oil at 40,000
miles due to the viscosity approaching 15W-50 from soot buildup and
winter approaching. Wear particles did not rise at all. I put 300,000
on that car and sold it to a friend of mine. It is still running.
Consider how much less oil we would need from Saudi Arabia if we all
practiced long drain intervals safely! After that, I just changed it
every year which was about 25K miles with a filter change in between.
My fuel economy did not change, but at 50 MPG, how would I notice a
small % increase?
>If you think you can get more mileage out of oil changes because you use
synthetic you are doing FAR MORE damage to your engine and you wrongfully
think you are benefiting. You WILL see the wear on the bearings from not
keeping engine oil as clean as possible at all times.
>
>Combustion carbon particles get in the oil regardless of if you are using
synthetics or not, so now we are comparing dirty synthetic to fresh clean
dino oil.
>I will go with clean "approved rated for my vehicle" oil.
>
Very true. The idea is to remove particles under 5 micrometers so there
is not contact when flowing between the tight bearing clearances.
Particles in the 15-20 micrometer range do the most damage. Diesel soot
is 0.2 micrometers and less so they don't affect wear unless permitted
to form deposits. Proper detergent/dispersent additives prevent that.
This is why good filtration is a must with any lubricant. Sythetics can
be filtered to finer particle sizes because they do not contain the wax
and parrafins that restrict flow in petroleum oils. Big rigs use a
large bypass oil filter that filters finer than that to permit use of
the oil far beyond 25,000 miles. With synthetics, bypass filtering, and
oil analysis, they can go 100,000 miles between changes with no
problem. The resultant reduced engine wear allows them to extend in
frame overhauls from 275,000 miles to 500,000 miles or more. I've seen
it done.
If you change your synthetic every 3-5 thousand miles now you are
spending ALLOT more cash than me over 100K miles.
This is what the oil companies want you to do because their oil
additives won't go any further. With synthetics, that is not a
limitation. 3 times dino drain intervals are conservative as a result.
I bet I spend much less than you on vanagon lubrication with my
synlubes. And I don't generate 5-8 times the waste oil that needs to be
imported and then recycled when changed each year.
>Vanagons do not suffer from lubrication or oil problems that synthetics
are the answer for, they are overkill in the vanagon are and not needed
period.
>
They seem to be tough little machines. But the advantages are even
longer life between rebuilds and less oil used. That sells it for me.
>Buy yourself some spare head gaskets and retorque your heads every 40-50K
and you will be doing ALLOT more for your engine life.
>Save your money or put it towards what you will really get something back
from, like perhaps another vanagon, new suby motor. 15inch wheels or flowers
for your gal.
>
That is something you will be able to do if you use synthetic lubes.
Instead of spending $1500+ for an engine rebuild, buy her a better
diamond ring!
>You will be rebuilding your engine in the same amount of time as if you
kept regular clean oil in your rig.
>If you run your oil dirty you will be rebuilding sooner regardless.
>
NOT! Wear particles in the oil prove otherwise.
Just one mans opinion,
>You guys can have the last word, spend your cash on whatever puts a smile
on your face.
>
>Doug - Taking Dino toCostco to buy another couple cases of Chevron
Supreme "dinosaur" oil
>
Somebody needs to keep them in business. You will one day soon find
that you are the last man using it. Already, ATF standards have
exceeded what dino ATF can manage. New API standards for motor oils are
getting tighter and tighter and the "big three" are starting to use
Mobil 1 at factory fill. The Corvette is a good example. Many manual
transmissions and differentials use synthetic gear lubes "filled for
life", like my 96 VW Cabrio automatic. It came rom Germany with their
synthetic ATF. There isn't a drain plug on the transmission!!
If anyone wants to see the oil analysis report on my 81 Rabbit, drop me
an email and I will send a .pdf of it to you. They also check for
silicon (bad air filter), water and glycol (coolant leaks), fuel
dilution (leaking injectors), viscosity and additive chemistry changes
indicating when it is time to change the oil.
My 50 cents worth of experience since 1985.
Tom Miller