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Date:         Tue, 1 Jun 2004 05:56:02 -0400
Reply-To:     vanagonman@EARTHLINK.NET
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Shannon Mitchell <vanagonman@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: 91 Vanagon will not start..? FIXED
In-Reply-To:  <112.3335f5bb.2deb8143@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Thanks to everyone... I cleaned all the grounds and now she starts like a champ...

Shannon 91 Vanagon

-----Original Message----- From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com]On Behalf Of Jeff Oxroad Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 2:26 PM To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: Re: 91 Vanagon will not start..?

In a message dated 5/30/2004 9:01:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time, vanagonman@EARTHLINK.NET writes:

> but > if I jump it with another vehicle she will start right up.. > >

A couple of things come to mind. If any of this is information you already know please just ignore. If you have already been through the following hopefully more ideas will come off the list.

It seems you have one of two problems both resulting in the starter not getting proper power. The first would be a bad battery--even though it bench tests OK. The second is a bad wiring connection because of corroded or dirty connections or faulty or corroded or just worn out wiring somewhere in the system. You might get lucky in this later case and find it as simple as a dirty connection. It is surprizing how a seemingly tiny bit of oxidation can render a perfectly good battery useless to starter motor on the other side of the oxidation.

The first thing I'd want to know is what brand battery you've bought and if it is the correct type for the Vanagon. Could be they're giving you the wrong battery. Could also be a problem with the battery leading it to bench test fine but not perform properly. This is probably not the problem, but I have heard of batteries with a poor link between the cells which causes them to test fine, but under load (like starting) the poor connection comes into play and drops the battery by 2 volts at the bad cell. In this scenario the battery doesn't have enough power to turn the starter motor. Specifically I have heard Sears Diehard has had a problem in this area. I'm sure haev had much luck with the DieHard--I never have.

Another problem with Sears is their battery technicians and mechanics tend to be pretty poor. Therefore not the best people to troubleshoot your battery or battery problem. I suppose this may spill over to other kind of bad retailers. Obviously you want a skilled mechanic testing your Vanagon and preferably someone who is a Vanagon expert as the Vanagon has some unique qualities mechanically speaking.

My next guess would be a poor electrical connection. This could be as simple as an unclean battery post connector. The connector that you attach to the top of the battery needs to be clean on the insdie where it contacts with the battery post. There are special little wire brushes that are designed to clean the battery post and the insdie of the battery connecter. You can get one at any auto parts store and it's a good cheap addition to you tool box. Possibly you can get inside the battery connecter with a piece of sand paper. But ultimately the inside of the terminal connector needs to be shiney to make good contact.

If you have a dirty connection this will make it difficult to properly charge the battery--possibly leading to your old battery's failure, and difficult for the power from the battery to properly get to the started motor.

Because your Vanagon starts with a jump I'd be curious how you are connecting the jumper cables to your bus. Are you connecting both cables to the battery posts or is the negative jumper wire grounded to the body somewhere? If you are connecting the jumper cable to the body and the bus is starting you may have a bad ground cable.

Clean up the ground cable or strap both at the battery as described earlier and the other end under the bus or maybe in the battery box where the cable or strap is bolted to the body. Unbolt this end and clean both the cable and the body metal where the cable bolts. Ultimately you want a good CLEAN connection--meaning bare metal where the cable meets the body. You do not need to sand excessively-- Just where actual contact between the cable and the body meet. Make the metal on both shine.

You also have a long amount of cable going from the battery to the starter motor and back and forth to the igntion key switch. Whereas in most vehicles the battery is relatively close to the starter motor and the ignition switch, the Vanagon is unique in that the engine is in the back of a long vehicle and the key is in the front as in the battery and means about 15 or 20 more feet of wiring than you would have in a standard front engine front battery vehicle.

Cable connections at the starter need to be checked and cleaned as appropriate as well.

A simple volt meter would be helpful to check this out or any reputable shop can very easily check this out. Basically you want to check the voltage drop at the starter. Unfortunatley I am not comfortable with giving the specifics of what your voltage should be at the battery and the starter. Someone else on the list will have to chime in with these stats--or like I said have a shop check it out. The test is only as good as the technician doing the work, so I'd avoid lousy shops like Pep Boys and Sears and the other lousy chains, Wal Mart also. Ultimatley the best is a Vanagon expert.

The thing is if you do have a bad connection somewhere or corroded wiring the second battery you are using to jump the vehicle is working in consort with your battery giving enough juice with the two batteries to overcome the problem. Or the connection at the jumper cables could bypass a poor terminal connection on your battery allowing the power to get where it's needed. Ultimatley once the battery cables are cleaned or the corraded wiring replaced one battery--your battery-- will do the trick to start the bus. This is in the case that your new battery is the proper battery for the Vanagon and in fact functioning properly.

The fact that your battery retailer so readily took back the first battery he sold you implies 1.he is a compitent mechanic, bench tested the battery, found it faulty and exchanged it, or 2. he has no idea what he's doing. I'm guessing it's the latter.

The following disclaimer for your safety, just to reiterate if you already know. There are safety concerns with all of the above. A battery gives off flammable gases so sparks at the battery during installation, removal, and attaching or removing jumper cables can cause an explosion. Wear goggles. Obviously if some one is under the bus while someone else is turning the key precautions must be taken to make sure no one gets run over. Emergency rooms are crowded on weekends. Make sure the vehicle is in neutral or park and the emergency brake is properly set.

Again if you have all this info. alreayd sorry to repeat.

Good luck Best Jeff 83.5 Westfalia LA,CA


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